SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

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mack8
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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 12:25 am

Regarding the subtypes of Su-22 in Iraqi AF service, this quote is from the "Iraqi losses during the 1980-88 war" topic:
SU-22 / Su-22R
delivered: 36
sent abroad during 1980s: 0
Accidental losses: ??
Combat losses: 20-25
remaining in 1990: 10
destroyed in 1991: 1
damaged in 1991: 0
flew to iran in 1991: 0
survived after 1991: 9

Su-22M2
delivered: 36
sent abroad during 1980s: 0
Accidental losses: ??
Combat losses: 8-12
remaining in 1990: 24
destroyed in 1991: 2
damaged in 1991: 6
flew to iran in 1991: 5
survived after 1991: 11

Su-22M3
delivered: 18
sent abroad during 1980s: 0
Accidental losses: 0
Combat losses: 2
remaining in 1990: 16
destroyed in 1991: 7
damaged in 1991: 0
flew to iran in 1991: 9
survived after 1991: 0
I'm a bit confused about the designations used, especially Su-22M2 and M3. Reading thru this topic , is it to be assumed that Su-22M2 and M3 were Iraqi AF personnel designations for these aircraft ? (not unheard of as other airforces uses local unoficial designations for aircraft in service).

I'm asking this because:
1) To my knowledge the manufacturer's designations for the Iraqi Sukhoi VG modifications should be in order Su-20, Su-22 (with no letter-the aircraft with the undernose fairing), and Su-22M (aircraft with big spine), and of course the last is Su-22M4. The real Su-22M3 aparently was built in limited numbers and can be readily identified by the suplementary R-60 pylons between the two fixed wing pylons on previous export marks ( like on Su-22M4). Seems Hungary only had some ( i might be wrong though).

2) According to the Iraqi AF top secret analysis from where the numbers of available numbers in 1990 come from , there were 10 Su-22R and 24 "Sukhoi-M2"-persumably Su-22s- left in 1990. Should it be understood that Iraq bought initially 36 Su-22R and 36 "Su-22M2"? I think Mr. Cooper in one of the captions for a reconnaisance configured Su-22 ( with no letter) states that only 6 KKR-1 pods were delivered. Is it possible that actually the Su-22R number is included in the "Su-22M2" number , and somehow they got counted twice ?

Sorry for the cumbersome writing , i'm trying to find the right words for what i want to ask. :-s

Thank you for your patiente.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 1:19 am

Mack8.

the numbers above are from the official Iraqi government list... The designations are unfortunately a mish-mash of "soviet" and "export" designations to confuse matters.

Only about 10 SU-22R were delivered AFAIK and they were based on the original SU-22 airframe.

As for the SU-22M2 I believe its simply the export variant of the SU-17M2? (yes confusingly also called simply "SU-22").

The SU-22M3 is not the same as the "hungarian" SU-22M3 but the "normal" export M3-K which was widely exported

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 2:01 am

Indeed, can be a bit confusing ( few years back i searched for long time what on earth is a Su-20M or a Su-22M-2K, before finally finding accurate data). I just go by what is pretty much first hand info regarding the correct designations, on the Sukhoi Company website , plus mr. Y. Gordon's Su-7/17 book aswell. :)
http://www.sukhoi.org/planes/museum/su17/

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 1:13 pm

mack8 كتب: I'm a bit confused about the designations used, especially Su-22M2 and M3. Reading thru this topic , is it to be assumed that Su-22M2 and M3 were Iraqi AF personnel designations for these aircraft ? (not unheard of as other airforces uses local unoficial designations for aircraft in service).
These designations are standard designations for exported aircraft, and they have been used in other air forces as well. Surely, some air forces used slightly different, local designation, but the IrAF did not do that.

So, in essence, there have been six major variants of Sukhois with variable-geometry wings delivered to Iraq, as follows:

- Su-20 (the first variant with variable-geometry wing)
- Su-22 (a sub-variant with stronger engine and a large housing including additional avionics under the intake)
- Su-22M-2K
- Su-22M-3K
- Su-22UM-3K (a two-seat variant used as conversion trainer)
- Su-22M-4K (the most advanced variant with digital nav/attack platform, also called "flying computer")

Confirmation for the existence of such variants like Su-22M-3K can be found in Libya these days, for example: the Libyan Su-22M-3Ks operated by two squadrons of that air force have flown a number of combat sorties during the rebellion there, before most were destroyed by the NATO, on 20-21 March 2011.

Manufacturer designations for all these variants were completely different. And, to make things really complex, there were plenty of sub-variants, like recce-variants, anti-radar variants, two-seat derivatives, then desginations depending on their engines (Lyulka AL-7Fs or Tumansky R-29) etc.. Also, the Soviet air force has had its own designations for them, since the entire series was sorted under "Su-17" there. Related to Iraq, most important variants were as follows:
- S.32 = Su-17 = only a few examples named "Su-20MK" were exported to Egypt, in the early 1970s
- S.32M = Su-17M = Su-20
- S.32-85 and S.32-92 = Su-17M2 = not exported
- S.32MK = not served in USSR = Su-22
(note: there was also Su-17UM-2 variant, manufactured for the Soviet AF; this was subsequently developed into the S.52 = Su-17M-3 = Su-22M-3K)
- S.52 = Su-17M-3 = export variant was manufactured as S.52K, see bellow
- S.52K = not served in USSR = Su-22M-2K
- S.52MK and MZK = not served in USSR = Su-22M-3K
- S.54 = Su-17M-4 = Su-22M-4K

Now, if you want to make it really complex, one could add that some air forces did apply their own designations to various of above-mentioned variants. For example, the Angolans have called their Su-22s the "Su-22M-4". Similarly, Peruvians called their Su-22s the "Su-22A", and their Su-22M-3Ks the "Su-22M-2D"... But, this was not the case in Iraq. Also, as far as I can say, all the official Iraqi documents are very specific - and usually 100% correct - in regards of variants. See for example the letter from September 1991, in which the IrAF and the Iraqi Foreign Ministry were demanding 124 very specific aircraft back from Iran: every single Sukhoi (and Mirage, and other aircraft) was cited with its exact sub-variant in that latter. Similarly, the IrAF Analysis of Losses from 1991-1992 provided a very precise break-down per variant.
1) To my knowledge the manufacturer's designations for the Iraqi Sukhoi VG modifications should be in order Su-20, Su-22 (with no letter-the aircraft with the undernose fairing), and Su-22M (aircraft with big spine), and of course the last is Su-22M4. The real Su-22M3 aparently was built in limited numbers and can be readily identified by the suplementary R-60 pylons between the two fixed wing pylons on previous export marks ( like on Su-22M4). Seems Hungary only had some ( i might be wrong though).
In essence, you're right. However, as described above, there were also two additional variants "in between" the Su-22M and Su-22M-4K. Namely, Su-22M-2K and Su-22M-3K.

The IrAF received the following variants (in chronological order of delivery):
- 18 Su-20 delivered in October 1973 (Lyulka AL-7F engines), all served with No.1 Squadron
- 36 Su-22 delivered in 1976 (Tumansky R-29 engines), of which 18 served with No.44 Squadron and 18 with No.109 Squadron; several of these belonged to the Su-22R sub-variant which could carry the KKR-1 recce pod
- 18 Su-22M delivered in 1978, all served with No.5 Squadron; six of these were upgraded to Su-22M-2K standard in 1981, equipped with Kh-58C/E anti-radar missiles (manufactured under licence in Iraq as "Nissin-28")
- some 20 Su-22M-2Ks were purchased in 1983 in order to replace losses; they re-equipped the entire No.5 Squadron, releasing remaining Su-22Ms to be transferred to No.44 Squadron.
- 18 Su-22M-2Ks were purchased in 1983-1984 in order to replace remaining Su-22s of No.109 Squadron (only 3 of these survived by the time)
- 18 Su-22M-3Ks were purchased in 1984; they entered service with No.69 Squadron; these were the first Iraqi Su-22 compatible with advanced PGMs and R-60s
- 36 Su-22M-4K were purchased in 1986-1987 and they entered service with No.5 and No.109 Squadrons
2) According to the Iraqi AF top secret analysis from where the numbers of available numbers in 1990 come from , there were 10 Su-22R and 24 "Sukhoi-M2"-persumably Su-22s- left in 1990. Should it be understood that Iraq bought initially 36 Su-22R and 36 "Su-22M2"? I think Mr. Cooper in one of the captions for a reconnaisance configured Su-22 ( with no letter) states that only 6 KKR-1 pods were delivered. Is it possible that actually the Su-22R number is included in the "Su-22M2" number , and somehow they got counted twice ?
Sorry, but I do not know what "top secret analysis" of the IrAF do you mean.

The data in "Iraqi Fighters" is coming from personal records of Brig Gen Sadik. As IrAF IA officer, he served at al-Hurrya AB during the first few years of the war with Iran, and thus witnessed most of the ops of local units equipped with Sukhois first hand: in fact, he was responsible for putting together their post-mission briefings and reporting about these to the IrAF HQ, and thus had a first-class insight into what was going on.

BTW, the IrAF lost a total of 64 Su-20/22s (all variants) in combat during the war with Iran (training accidents excluded), and one during the war with Kuwait, in August 1990. The worst affected variant was the Su-22, only three of which were left by 1983 (all three can be found in derelict condition at the former Habbaniya AB, even today). That is the figure from the IrAF's Analysis of Combat Losses, put together in 1991-1992.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 10:39 pm

Hi Mr. Cooper.

Thanks for your comprehensive reply , much apreciated.
The "top secret" document in question ( well it was secret when it was made, until the americans decided to make it and many others public) come from this DTIC publication:

"Iraqi Perspectives Project Phase II
Um Al-Ma’arik (The Mother of All Battles):
Operational and Strategic Insights
from an Iraqi Perspective
Volume 1 (Revised May 2008)"

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Lo ... =ADA484530

On page 373 there is this table regarding the Iraq AF holdings and losses during the war. The designation errors were probably kept as in the original. ( "Sukhoi-21" or "MiG-23MK" etc ).

As for the Su-22 subtypes again all my info comes from Sukhoi's website, which should be pretty much spot on , as they build the things didn't they , but i think i'm getting around re: the designations you used (at least for iraqi machines). :)

As observation though, aren't all the Su-20's suposed have AL-21F engines ? (not AL-7F). Of course from Su-22 onwards they had the R-29BS-300, reverting back to AL-21F in Su-22M-4 and the Su-22UM-3K.

Can i ask what PGMs the latest "M-3Ks" were carrying, H-25 and H-29 types? Were they having any LGBs? ( KAB series ?).

Again, many thanks, especially for the list of how many aircraft going to which squadron, great info.
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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 11:48 pm

PS: another little detail which i missed in my past post, i presume the Nissan-28 is the russian H-28E, not the later H-58 , correct ?
Thanks.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الأحد يوليو 17, 2011 8:31 pm

Hope you don't mind me answering point-by-point, Mack (really, no pun intended).
mack8 كتب:On page 373 there is this table regarding the Iraq AF holdings and losses during the war. The designation errors were probably kept as in the original. ( "Sukhoi-21" or "MiG-23MK" etc ).
I see. Thanks. I'm nearly stunned: I never saw an IrAF document being so inprecise in this regards.
As observation though, aren't all the Su-20's suposed have AL-21F engines ? (not AL-7F). Of course from Su-22 onwards they had the R-29BS-300, reverting back to AL-21F in Su-22M-4 and the Su-22UM-3K.
I should've been more precise here. Yes, the AL-7 was used only on one of the very first variants, and I mentioned it as an example. Most of variants that were exported in the 1970s and 1980s have used the AL-21.
Can i ask what PGMs the latest "M-3Ks" were carrying, H-25 and H-29 types? Were they having any LGBs? ( KAB series ?).
Kh-23s and Kh-28s. Kh-25s became available slighlty later on but were hardly ever used during the war (actually, I think to recall that their first combat deployed was on 2 August 1990, against Kuwait).
Again, many thanks, especially for the list of how many aircraft going to which squadron, great info.
You're most welcome. But, if you don't mind, you should try to get a copy of "Iraqi Fighters": there is much more in there (and, there are only some 50 or so left in publisher's depot, so they might be out of print quite soon). ;)
PS: another little detail which i missed in my past post, i presume the Nissan-28 is the russian H-28E, not the later H-58 , correct ?
Yes - and no. The Kh-28 was delivered to Iraq in two variants. Kh-28C and Kh-28E (so "no" in sence that not only the Kh-28 was delievered to Iraq).

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأحد يوليو 17, 2011 10:00 pm

Hi again sir,

If i may, when you say
I see. Thanks. I'm nearly stunned: I never saw an IrAF document being so imprecise in this regards.
...is it imprecise as to the aircraft designations, or imprecise as to the numbers shown ?
Yes - and no. The Kh-28 was delivered to Iraq in two variants. Kh-28C and Kh-28E (so "no" in sence that not only the Kh-28 was delievered to Iraq).
H-28C ( or Kh-28C -anglicized), is that the correct designation ? I'm asking becasue to my knowledge there's no "C " in the cyrilic alphabet, can it be actually Kh-28S ?( "S" in cyrilic is roman "C").

(as you can see, i'm a kind of designations nutter, sorry . :)) )
You're most welcome. But, if you don't mind, you should try to get a copy of "Iraqi Fighters": there is much more in there (and, there are only some 50 or so left in publisher's depot, so they might be out of print quite soon). ;)
I was just about to say "not when it's something like £90 a pop!" but i realized that unlike Amazon, the price on the publisher's website IanAllan is a much more bearable £35, so yes, aquiring your recent works i something i really want , BUT as you know the economics these days are the way they are so ...hopefully sometime. :)

Again, many thanks for your replies and input, much apreciated.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الخميس يوليو 21, 2011 10:05 am

mack8 كتب:...is it imprecise as to the aircraft designations, or imprecise as to the numbers shown ?
Inprecise in regards of designations.
H-28C ( or Kh-28C -anglicized), is that the correct designation ? I'm asking becasue to my knowledge there's no "C " in the cyrilic alphabet, can it be actually Kh-28S ?( "S" in cyrilic is roman "C").

(as you can see, i'm a kind of designations nutter, sorry . :)) )
No problem, don't worry.

Regarding the designation: really, no clue. I know it only as cited by IrAF documents, which called it the Kh-28C.
I was just about to say "not when it's something like £90 a pop!" but i realized that unlike Amazon, the price on the publisher's website IanAllan is a much more bearable £35, so yes, aquiring your recent works i something i really want , BUT as you know the economics these days are the way they are so ...hopefully sometime. :)
I know that very well. The publisher too. That's why we went for a soft-back, despite the size of the book (A4 format, 256 pages). That keeps the price low.

BTW, you can get it for even less directly from the publisher (€35) or from specialized stores like The Aviation Bookshop in Tunbridge Wells and Aviation Megastore in The Netherlands.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » الأحد سبتمبر 18, 2011 9:33 pm

في حديث مع احد الاخوة الطيارين عن طائرة السوخوي 7
اوضح ان السرب السابع كان يحتوي على طائرة سوخوي 7 في قاعدة الوليد
H3
عام 1988 وكانت الطائرة في نهاية عمرها وبعد عدة حوادث مميتة تم اخراج الطائرة من الخدمة عام1988 وتمت هيكلة السرب السابع

SQ7 flew SU-7 un 1988
in H3 base
and after many accident
the aircraft stopped flying in 1988

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة SPuitH » الاثنين فبراير 20, 2012 12:15 pm

Salam Aleikum!

A lot of good info here on this forum regarding these birds! Just like Mack I am a big nit picker on details, so I have to ask the following:
Tom كتب:
Mack كتب:As observation though, aren't all the Su-20's suposed have AL-21F engines ? (not AL-7F). Of course from Su-22 onwards they had the R-29BS-300, reverting back to AL-21F in Su-22M-4 and the Su-22UM-3K.


I should've been more precise here. Yes, the AL-7 was used only on one of the very first variants, and I mentioned it as an example. Most of variants that were exported in the 1970s and 1980s have used the AL-21.
So a question I would have to ask if the Su-20s delivered to Iraq ALL have AL-7s or AL-21 or a mix? Reason is that I am putting spec together for these aircraft and seeing the fuel thirst difference between the aircraft it makes a lot of difference reagarding performance...

Regards,

Sander

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأحد فبراير 26, 2012 5:51 pm

IIRC correctly, no Su-20 or Su-22 exported had AL-7F engine.

The only Su-17 with an AL-7F engine was the very first variant that was built in small numbers, and don't think it was exported ( except for claims that a small number of Su-17K were delivered to Egypt in 1973).

Pretty sure Su-20 (export Su-17M)for Iraq or other countries receiving it all have AL-21F engines.

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » الاثنين فبراير 27, 2012 4:29 pm

mack8 كتب:IIRC correctly, no Su-20 or Su-22 exported had AL-7F engine.

The only Su-17 with an AL-7F engine was the very first variant that was built in small numbers, and don't think it was exported ( except for claims that a small number of Su-17K were delivered to Egypt in 1973).

Pretty sure Su-20 (export Su-17M)for Iraq or other countries receiving it all have AL-21F engines.

egypt recieved 16 su-17 in 1972 but after 8 months it stop flying because of little time flying 17 minute only and too much problems
and later egypt recived 14 su-20 four of them downed in 17 octber 1973

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة SPuitH » الأربعاء فبراير 29, 2012 8:43 am

Mack,

I have to disagree here, as based on an article in the International Air Power Review on the Swing Wing Fitters and the book Iraqi fighters state that the early Su-20s exported to Syria, Egypt and Iraq have AL-7F engines.

Because the AL-21 had no export clearance I am unsure that these aircraft got this better engine. However, the Soviet Union may have exported these engines nonetheless as a trial batch. A small number of Su-20s was built and maybe these nations were "special customers".

The Su-22 Fitters have no AL-7F engines ever, I fully agree here. Only R-29s and in the Su-22M-4K AL-21s...


Regards,

Sander

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Re: SU7, 20, 22 FITTERS of the Iraqi air force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء فبراير 29, 2012 11:51 pm

I will have to disagree too SPuitH , the information you have i believe it is wrong . The best to check is sukhoi.org website , they have a page on Su-17 there, and they should know about it, because they built it!

My understanding was that AL-21F WAS exported initially on the Su-20 (to Both WarpAC and other countries) , and the subsequent change of engine have nothing to do with "export clearance" , but simply the high demand for this engine in the SU for Su-17 and the very important and that time twin engined attacker Su-24.

That's why on later Su-22 types , they changed to R-29BS. Later, in the eighties, Su-22M-4 reverted back to AL-21F.

As i said, there WAS an initial Su-17 (just Su-17, no letter) type with AL-21F engine , just looked pics on net , and it's easily distinguishable from an Su-17M or Su-20 ( engine bay is fatter , conduites on side of fuselage like Su-7BMK , different cooling intakes for engine etc.), but it was built in small numbers.

Perhaps one of our iraqi friends flew/ worked on the Su-20 and can clarify the engine issue for us ?

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