Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

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hayder
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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الثلاثاء يوليو 02, 2013 2:18 pm

1- whilst we don't know for sure how many planes Iraq lost to different "reasons"... we do know quite well how many airframes they lost in the war. And that does not tally at all with the claims of 150+ planes shot down by F14s at all...

2- Yes we all know about Sirena RWRs and APX-80s... etc...

3- My father in law served on H3 during the entire war. It was a training base at that time and the Iranian attack caused no damage. At the time the Iraqis said (and maintain to this day) that the attack was carried out by Iranian aircraft flying in from Syria. If you are interested I can put you in touch with my father in law and another friend of his who also served on H3 during that period (and if you remember I did put you in touch with the former Commander of the Iraqi AF some years ago ;) )

4- There were a lot of "fantastic" claims in previous publications like:
-Soviets supplying Iraq with more planes than reality (in order to make the F14 kill claims "fit")
-soviets flying MiG25BMs and MiG27s
-One missile shooting down 3 MiG23s! (rambo style)
-Any "effective" Iraqi air missions were "flown" by European mercenary pilots (because the Iraqis are incompetents, of course).
-And the fact that the early air war in which Iran had 300+ long range modern BVR capable fighters vs Iraq's antique WVR fighters was grossly misrepresented in the previous books (IMHO, they should have detailed how the Iraqis managed to maintain balance despite having massively inferior aircraft)
-Much was made about the "chaos" in Iran's military post revolution, but no mention of the massive purges and soviet arms embargo on Iraq... which were also major factors in the beginning of the war.
-The relative size of the countries and the range of their respective aircraft affecting the strategic balance of giving Iran another major "advantage" over Iraq which was not exploited by them... not much was made of this in the "analysis" of the respective "competence" of the forces in the war's conduct.
-The fact that the Iraqis flew 6-7x more combat missions and lost less aircraft in the process than Iran.... instead we only got a lot of "third hand" hyperbole about how Iraqis were "terrified" to fly into Iranian airspace!
-Much was made of the advanced Iranian electronic support systems both ground based and airborne... but little mention was made about how these proved ineffective in stopping Iraq's antiquated aircraft from flying hundreds of combat sorties daily.
-150+ kill claims for F14 are "confirmed"... does that still stand?
-on the topic of "exaggeration" in loss claims... we now know the following:

super etendard:
ACTUAL CLAIM
1 4

F14:
ACTUAL CLAIM
19 20

OK. Iraqis claim that the 1 super etendard was on a training flight. It may have been SHOT DOWN on that training flight (we don't know!)... at the same time Iran lost completely 19 F14 airframes... were 15 of those "lost in accidents"??


I think the above points are important factors when judging the air war between the two combatants, and the way that the previous books were presented certainly did not give the readers an accurate "picture" of the air war.

with regards to new sources coming out, there are a few new memoirs by Iraqi officers from that war coming out. a couple have been published already, and there are certainly many former officers from the old Iraqi air force who rejoined the Iraqi Air Force Air Academy in the past few years as instructors who could be available for interview. I'll be meeting with the new Iraqi Defence Attache in London tomorrow, and I'll ask him if any are happy to be interviewed.

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Re: Super Etendard in the war with Iran

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الثلاثاء يوليو 02, 2013 3:27 pm

TomCooper كتب: Aha, and it does not contain any of Iraqi claims that were known at that time?
those were not actual IrAF claims, just propaganda communiques from the Iraqi press from the war period obtained through FBIS archives?
Just for your information: even back as of 1998-2002, when that book was written, something like 300 Iraqi air-to-air claims used to be known. Including those for no less but 20 or so F-14 Tomcats. For example, it was known that the IrAF has got pilots who claimed 14 kills in the first two years of the war, only two of which were ever confirmed. But, you find it opportune to ignore this, because it suits you to declare that book for 'simply a collection of Iranian claims'?

'Fascinating'.
So Iraqi "kill claims have to be cross referenced to Iranian losses... was the same done vice versa for all Iranian kill claims?

Frankly speaking, Haider: what is 'coming out'?
Old Iraqi officers rejoining the military are publishing some works inside Iraq.
Some Iraqi officers outside Iraq publishing their memoirs.
Some US studies and interviews that you know already.

The IrAF archives were destroyed. They do not exist since late 2002. That's a matter of fact. The Pentagon team has got few bits from private archives (I discussed this issue with them, first hand, so no need to explain me anything else), and has got much more time and opportunity (and the Pentagon didn't let me into Iraq when there was still enough to save), and our team has got some parts. The few documents and reports we've got in total are barelly scratching the surface, and it's certain that nobody got 'everything'. Not few of the documents in question are strongly contradictive, especially in regards of numbers. They are obviously based on poor methods of research, at least poor or incomplete statistics, and often on little more but myths.
Do you have access to Iranian official archives?
Practically all of surviving ex-IrAF pilots and their relatives (regardless what degree) are as sillent as a grave. Unless one meets them personally, and has the opportunity to really 'press & milk' them, nothing is coming out but few blurred photos and videos. Well, sorry: I simply can't afford my travellign any more. I practically bankrupted myself searching for them.
sure. the purpose of the forum is to build up an archive (slowly) from Iraqi sources. Since I am working all the time, I haven't really paid any attention to this topic for many years!
And the internet is not making things any easier in this case. The few fading memories are rather of annecdotal quality, and have to be cross-examined 50 times in order to ascertain their validity. Curiously, most of people suddenly appearing on the internet, disappear before soon. And most of them can't even rember their C-in-Cs, not to talk about their units.
Often officers are afraid of revealing their names , units etc... some are on the Iraqi AF facebook page though.
Is it 'better' in regards of photos? Should I now think it's 'great' that there are such things like that CD with photos taken during different MiG-25RB-missions in the 1980s and early 1990s, or the one with ATLIS-videos of various Mirage-attacks? You seriously think they are telling the 'full story'? Think for a while: what are they telling at all?
just eye candy, but nice to have!
And, heaven: out of 12 CVs written by most distinguished IrAF pilots for Saddam in 2001-2002 period, only two ever became available. And even they have been lost, meanwhile.
The Iraqi "war college" is being reorganised and rebuilding their archives as we speak. What useful info they will contain.. nobody knows, but it will certainly open up more info regarding the war.
Every single person that was ever making me grandiose promises like, 'I'm going to tell you how it was', 'I'm going to provide documentation', 'I'm going to bring my photos/send them to you'... and whatever else, all of them 'disappeared'.
well, that is the nature of the internet... anyone can claim anything... but there are plenty of "real" people out there too. Just that many are still afraid to speak out about their military years (even in private discussion).
The situation is rather such that state of research and knowledge about the history of the IrAF is now poorer than that of research and knowledge about the Egyptian and Syrian air forces. Mind this: 12-14 years ago, it was the other way around.

Do you have an idea what I had to do in order to reconstruct the history of the IrAF in 1958-1973 period? Could I rely on anybody's recollections? Could I make use of any Iraqi documents?
Well wasn't Abdul Razaq of any use? (he was a very old man at the time though!). Sadly I knew one former hunter pilot who flew in the 1967 war who is now dead, and he never spoke much about his exploits. But my father in law knew him well though... I will ask him if he wants to talk to you (again, since he didn't want to a few years ago).
No. Farzad had to work himself for two weeks through the British archives, our Czech co-worker (you'll see the results of his work in Arab MiGs Volume 4, due out in two months) has to work himself through Czechoslovak archives since more than a year, and I have to work myself through all the other possible archives and other sources of reference.
its not easy finding (accurate) stuff about Iraq!
Do you think it would be any different in regards of the IrAF history for subsequent periods?
Yes, I think there is hope for getting much more insight into the iran-iraq war period and subsequent periods...
If your answer is positive, you're victim of your own illusions.
maybe :D
So, that's 'fiction'? Perhaps even 'science fiction'? It's a 'fiction' that the IRIAF flew a formation of two B747s and eight F-4E Phantoms over all of northern and western Iraq and attacked all three airfields of the H-3 complex - and that the IrAF did nothing to stop that operation? The Iranian aircraft were 'all stealth fighters'? Or they 'didn't matter'? Or what is your explanation?

And how many official IrAF documents about the damage caused by this attack can you show? 1? 5? 30? Or none at all?
As I told you, my father in law was based one H3 for over 6 years and he mentioned the attempted Iranian attack. The only notable thing he mentioned that the Air Defence Officer was executed or committed suicide for his failure to intercept. But the base itself was not damaged.
Is that my problem? Did I fail to buy such fighters?
no. But as a "neutral observer" your commentary should take into consideration the technological gap between combatants! Since that is an interesting facet of the initial air war where the heavy BVR US made fighters did not manage to have air supremacy over old soviet WVR fighters!
...which performed very poorly considering the massive technological gap between the combatants!
Did I order the IrAF to attack Iran?
huh? how is that an answer to the question posed? The point is, as a "neutral observer" of the air war... the fact that the high-tech US supplied and trained Air Force failed to overpower an "arab" air force armed with soviet antiques and trained "very poorly" would be a rather important diversion from the "accepted norm" about the competence of arabs and the capability of old soviet fighters!
But that point is at no point ever mentioned in the books...
'No', it's 'not mentioned'. There is 'just' a two-pages-long IrAF ORBAT making it clear what kind of fighters were operated by what air force...
The point is... the VERY important point of:

badly trained arabs in old soviet WVR fighters and poor soviet-style GCI

vs

US trained Iranians armed with high-tech BVR fighters and excellent ESM support

did not pan out as it should have!!!! That is a basic commentary about the early stages of the air war that was COMPLETELY MISSING... hence the accusations of very overt bias.
...and that IMHO would show that older soviet fighters like the ones Iraq operated could take on more modern US fighters in the air as long as those were not operated by the US or one of its close allies (i.e. with RC135 / AWACS support).
...with tragic consequences, without doubt.
It wasn't "tragic consequences" though... a tragic and "expected" consequence of such an "air war" would have been the complete annihilation of the Iraqi airforce within a few days of the start of the war... but that did not happen! which is why the above commentary about the beginning of the air war is very important... and sadly overlooked in IIWIA.
But never mind. It's also a 'well known fact' (well, at least in Iraq), that 'not a single bomb dropped by Iranian fighter-bombers' has ever hit any target. So also it is a 'well-known fact' that no IrAF fighter was ever shot down in air combat with Iranians, that the IrAF 'swept the skies clear of the IRIAF', etc.
no one ever wrote that :D why diverting the topic?
'Strangely' enough, there are photos of wreckage of Iraqi MiG-25s shot down and thus lost (like the one shot down over Arak), but such losses are never mentioned in any of documents that surfaced in recent years...
Simply not true. the first page of this thread mentions all Iraqi MiG25 losses in the war.
and a MiG-25 written off because it was first damaged by an AIM-54A and then hit by 20mm cannon fire from an F-5E is also not mentioned. 'Somebody' (you and me know who), has 'inspected' that MiG-25... and later said to us he has found only 'very little damage'. But the plane was written off? And this write-off was not recorded as any sort of combat loss...?
All air forces record "write off" after landing as a non-combat loss, including IRIAF, USAF etc... however the "written off" airframes are still recorded as such on page one of this thread. So for brevity's sake we even took to include possibly all "write off" losses as potential shoot downs. Now about those 19 Iranian F14s written off...
But, the documents are 'complete', huh? ....and all the ex-IrAF pilots one can ask are still sternously convinced Iranian F-14s could't fire AIM-7s and AIM-54s, and were inoperational, practically 'non-existing' during the entire war...
Perhaps because they flew thousands of missions without ever encountering one? On a rare day the F14 would climb up into the sky... maybe for a flypast at an airshow over tehran, or CAP over bushehr and shoot down an unlucky Iraqi fighter (or get shot down, as those 19 airframes illustrate aptly)... point is, the F14 really had no noticeable effect on the iran-iraq war... and that is a fact which was misrepresented in earlier publications. Fine it shot down some Iraqi planes! what was the effect on the war? even the "air war"?? I would say the Iranian AH1 and Iraqi MiG21s had far more effect on the air war than any F14 (or MiG25!)
and this because their (the IrAF) 'Intelligence' told them so... and this Intelligence based that assessment on the 'facts' provided by Reza Moradi, an Iranian defector...and 'Intelligence is always right'...even though when using information from a source as 'irreliable as defectors are, as everybody knows' (I'm just citing various Iraqis I interviewed over the last 20 years).
OK. so some intelligence the Iraqis obtained was inaccurate. Why don't you contact Wafiq Al Samarai' (he has written his own memoirs too, and is available for interview) and ask him about Iraqi intelligence gathering etc... (he was a double agent for Iran as alleged?)
Shall I go on?
Yes!! preferably in a new publication about the Iraqi AF :D
Hayer, seriously: you still think these few documents are complete and providing a 'definite picture'?
oh, we won't know a "definite" picture ever... but at least we can slowly get a clearer view.
Man, if you do so, then you also believe Tehran's latest set of 'conclusions about lessons from air warfare during Iran-Iraq War' - which 'decided' that the IRIAF never shot down any Iraqi MiG-25, but the IRGC did so... and this at the time and place where there were no IRGC at all...
why conflagate blatant propaganda with "data"... by now you should know what stuff to read and what to ignore...
Lets hope that more accurate works are published in the future...
Oh, but sure. We can hope about this as long as we like. 'Inshallah' it's going to happen, right?
inshallah!
I'm the least to brag or whatever else. As said above: I practically bankrupted myself researching about Arab air forces. But perhaps I'm really 'fanatical' in what I'm doing, and so I came to a crazy idea of establishing an own publisher that would publish such books. What do you think, how comes? I did so because I had nothing better to do?
Its your hobby.

Or would you come to the idea that there might be other reasons 'why'? Perhaps it is so that because if anybody would come to the idea to sit down and write a corresponding manuscript - nobody would publish it.
yes I believe it.
You don't believe it? No problem. Do us both a favour: present yourself as an aspiring author of a manuscript of anything related to some 'Arab' air force, and try to offer it to any publisher. Then see what's going to happen and what kind of answers are you going to get.
I can guess!
And please: don't tell me I didn't tell you.
tell me what? I am an Iraqi. I am perfectly aware about these things.
Thanks, but sorry - and without and disrespect (even though I've got so much disrespect from you now) - I have to correct you here: I don't think you have the slightest idea of how much effort was invested in every single of any publications I authored or co-authored.
Actually I have made my own publications in peer-reviewed international scientific journals. So I am aware to an extent about this.
Furthermore, I strongly doubt you have any trace of knowledge about publishing business, in general, and about many other things.


that wasn't nice.
Thus, again: sorry, but you've lost me here.
why? peer-review is important. Just ignore the ad-hominems and focus on any real "critique". Your later publications are certainly very good by comparison. and IIWIA was also good as an "Iranian Perspectives" book.
If you're angered by somebody parading around with the first ever book I co-authored, then it's your own fault you can't 'hit back' - for example by one of our (I'm talking here about 'us' as the team in which several authors are working) more recent publications.
I am perfectly aware of all your newer publications which did clear up a lot of the false info from the first book... but the argument by the posters here is that the first book is still used as "reference" to spread false info by other people.
So, if you're out of counterargumentation, sorry, not my problem: they are available, but you're not using them.
I'm not out of "counter-arguments"! We are just hoping for a new IIWIA book with all the latest info, perhaps co-authored with some Iraqi AF officers? :D

It's no evidence he crashed during training flight, and was not shot down in combat.

The only such evidence would be that pilot's log book, or the official IrAF report about 'that' accident (provided it was an accident).
OK. Where was the official kill claim for it? Has it been corroborated? Any evidence for it?

And, from experience with other IrAF reports of such nature, this would then have to be cross-examined 'wide and far', simply in order to make sure, that the post-accident report was not filled by one of Saddam's crownies, who didn't want his boss to be coupped away by leading IrAF generals, mad about there being a clause in Super Etendard contract, that the French have to pay 'penalties' to Saddam (yup, straight into his pockets) for every of aircraft they have built and delivered to Iraq, if this would be shot down in combat with Iran.
That is a rather strange "clause"...

Never heard of that? Oh, what a surprise...
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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الثلاثاء يوليو 02, 2013 10:19 pm

Final 'volley'...
hayder كتب:1- whilst we don't know for sure how many planes Iraq lost to different "reasons"... we do know quite well how many airframes they lost in the war. And that does not tally at all with the claims of 150+ planes shot down by F14s at all...
No, you don't know - because, as you observed yourself - this 'documentation' that is available is badly pampered.

Just one example: if the IrAF says 'we've lost 3 MiG-25s throughout the entire war', but one then easily obtains evidence that at least 2, more likely 4-5 additional planes (additional to these 3 'officially confirmed') were 'written off' (note: 2 of them after returing to base in badly-damaged condition; the other was shot out of the skies and crashed in the middle of Arak, in view of only about 1 Million of eyewitnesses) - then it's easy to conclude that your 'documentation' is at least 75%, more likely something like 100-125% off.

Of course, I do not think that more than the usually admitted 64 Su-20/22s have been lost, as reported on the (full) transcription of the IrAF study titled 'An Analytical Study on the Causes of Iraqi Aircraft Atrittion During the Iran-Iraq War' ('Top Secret' IrAF Document from 1989; sorry, it seems I'm the only one having a copy at hand).

However, when that study concludes with 'we've lost 168 aircraft shot down by Iranians' (that's without helicopters which were operated by the IrAAC), sorry, I can't avoid to conclude, 'yup, and add 75% more to have a complete figure'.

And since 75% of 168 is (still) 126...and the list with 200+ IrAF pilots known to have been shot down is readily available... well, then whatever anybody wants to tell me: the actual probable number of IrAF aircraft lost during the Iran-Iraq War goes well over 250, probably in direction of 300.

As said: you can now explain me whatever you like. You can ignore the APX-80, or problems with Sirena etc. You can ignore another study I've got, documenting the IrAF spending US$ 2 billion for (fruitless) development of ECM-systems to counter the AWG-9. You can ignore lists of downed Iraqi pilots, photos of wreckage of downed IrAF aircraft, you can continue to insist on that other list found by the Americans (and obviously based on the study I've got) etc. I say: I can ignore all of your argumentation, because sheer evidence is contradicting the basis of your standpoint. Period.
3- My father in law served on H3 during the entire war...
...ah, connect me with whoever you like. I'm open for any contacts to sources - and not expecting anything at all. So, there can be no further disapointment.
4- There were a lot of "fantastic" claims in previous publications like:
Yup, and there are plenty of things you simply don't understand or don't know. For example, you don't know that for much of the 1970s and 1980s, the Westerners considered anything of what we nowadays know is 'MiG-23BN' for 'MiG-27'.

And if you like 'fantastic claims', then why don't mention Baghdad Observer's rubbish about 'Russian Mi-24 delivered to Iraq for testing purposes and armed with AT-6s has shot down a Phantom'?

Why don't you actually want to realize that your claim about 19 F-14s shot down is also based on little else but fantasy? 5 F-14s, OK. If you want, 6-7, also 'fine'. But 19... 8-}
Any "effective" Iraqi air missions were "flown" by European mercenary pilots..
Would you like to say there were no Western/European mercenaries flying with the IrAF? Are you ready to swear this is 100% truth?

And if there were 'none', as practically all of your sources insist, how comes one of the French AF-pilots 'loaned' by the AdA to Thompson-CSF and then deputated to Iraq where he flew Mirages for years, has earned himself the nick-name 'Arab'?
-And the fact that the early air war in which Iran had 300+ long range modern BVR capable fighters vs Iraq's antique WVR fighters was grossly misrepresented in the previous books (IMHO, they should have detailed how the Iraqis managed to maintain balance despite having massively inferior aircraft)
Yup, we should have explained that the IrAF has hidden its fighter planes inside HASes. Guess that would make it appear much more 'heroic'...
-Much was made about the "chaos" in Iran's military post revolution, but no mention of the massive purges and soviet arms embargo on Iraq...
'Embargo'...? And mid during this 'embargo' the Soviets started deliveries of MiG-25s to Iraq.

Please, get serious: you don't believe what you say, first and foremost.
...The fact that the Iraqis flew 6-7x more combat missions and lost less aircraft in the process than Iran....
...what a surprise, considering any F-4 could take four times as many bombs as any MiG-21, and still remain airborne for three times longer... You do understand that if one flies planes that carry less and have a shorter range, then one needs flying such planes much more often?
... instead we only got a lot of "third hand" hyperbole about how Iraqis were "terrified" to fly into Iranian airspace!
I was waiting for this to come.

OK, they were not affraid. And as next, and because F-14s didn't hit anything, and were inoperational, Hayder is now going to explain us why to hell did Saddam - note: Saddam personally - launch a diplomatic offensive in 1986, with the aim of curbing operations of the IRIAF F-14-fleet through spreading rumours that many of Iranian Tomcat-pilots would defect.

C'mon, Hayder: enlighten us. Why doing that if the F-14s were flying 'perhaps a few sorties for parades in Tehran'?

Why doing that, why investing US$2 billion in development of ECM? Why scanning the Iranian airspace 24/7 during eight years of war for any trace of AWG-9 emissions? Why losing ONLY and exclusively IrAF's best-equipped and best-flown aircraft to F-14s? Hell: why claiming 19 of them as shot down?

Because F-14s were 'inoperational'?

Oh my, why am I wasting my time with this... :-??

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة Hawkeye » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 1:13 am

TomCooper كتب:
2.) And since I have read it only now, I can also reply. And here I must conclude that having a photo of a pilot is no 'evidence' for anything else - but that he was photographed at some point in time. Like every other pilot of every other air force.

It's no evidence he crashed during training flight, and was not shot down in combat.

The only such evidence would be that pilot's log book, or the official IrAF report about 'that' accident (provided it was an accident).

And, from experience with other IrAF reports of such nature, this would then have to be cross-examined 'wide and far', simply in order to make sure, that the post-accident report was not filled by one of Saddam's crownies, who didn't want his boss to be coupped away by leading IrAF generals, mad about there being a clause in Super Etendard contract, that the French have to pay 'penalties' to Saddam (yup, straight into his pockets) for every of aircraft they have built and delivered to Iraq, if this would be shot down in combat with Iran.

Never heard of that? Oh, what a surprise...
Such a strange person you ask and you give the answer, wondering why you keep searching events anyway? Will I haven't listened to Saddam crownies or whatever to what happened to that Super Etendard, but my relatives who served as ordered an air base in the south at that time, received call about the crash of that aircraft where we were with him at that moment, As for image, some of the documents quoted to our house during the events of the insurgency that followed the Second Gulf War, Until the beginning of 1992 were returned.
So no “what a surprise”

TomCooper كتب: Well, sorry, but the war ended with Iranian artillery at exactly the same place it was in August-September 1980, and Iraq had to accept the tawleg border on Shatt al-Arab.

From that standpoint, Iraq did not achieve even its minimalistic aims. That means: it did not win. Iraq lost during the 1980-1982 phase, and its troops were kicked out of Iran. It stopped major Iranian offensives of 1983-1987 period, but inside Iraqi borders (see the loss of al-Faw). It counterattacked in 1988 and re-occuppied much of its land, but by far not all, and then primarily 'thanks' to extensive use of chemical weapons (or, do you prefer to ignore discussing this topic?). Furthermore, even as of 1988, Iraq couldn't hold more but few positions inside Iran. Eventually, Iraq - that was prospering and had foreign valuta reserves worth around US$20 billion in 1979 - ended the war broke and with US$80 billion of debt...
Regardless of the political causes of the war and the economic cost, Iraq won the war against Iran, as explained to you the war was ended and Iraq occupies large areas inside Iranian territory and the Shatt al-Arab Iraqi possession, And Khomeini's statement that drinking poison to accept a cease-fire resolution. Do I need to mention the number of Iranian casualties during the war? Even thrown children and minors in the frontline of the war, Photos, videos showing the size of the losses of Iranian tanks and mechanisms that seized by Iraqi army during the war..etc.
And if you ask why re-half of the Shatt al-Arab back to Iran its Saddam Hussein's decision to secure the eastern front, in the war against Coalition 1991.
TomCooper كتب: And on the sea... oh my, this is where it looks really bad - for the Iraqi Navy. Eventually, it's only really successful operation was its participation in the liberation of al-Faw, in April 1988.

404 error
Iraqi naval force in spite of the small compared Iranian fleet, Inflicting heavy losses in the Iranian fleet, not to mention more than a successful landing operation carried out by the Iraqi naval force and flooding the Iranian warships, even there is a helicopter operations (super frelon ) on some Iranian navy unit acquired during the years 1985 and 1986, for that the Iraqi coasts and ports was safe along the eight years of war the proof is continuation of navigation and trade, import and export through Iraqi ports. (Who heard about the Iranian navy at that time? good to know Iranian has navy)...
TomCooper كتب: A classic Iraqi excuse to apologize a draw.

That's like if you would argument that 'Iraq won the war because Saddam was still in power when the war ended'. It means nothing at all.
Nothing related to Saddam still in power or not when the war ended, it's all about clear fact smaller size country, less population, less resources, smaller army comparison to Iran, and then we fought eight years and kept our home security and safe plus keeping land from the Iranian side, if they are victorious so why they left it in our hands “forgotten”? Or Iran just big enough and they don’t need it?
To be aware of Iran were not occupy an inch of Iraqi territory when the war ended (They were playing in their noses) that’s all.
TomCooper كتب: but that's directly opposite to your own claim. Namely, Saddam - personally, and 'live' on TV - tore apart that agreement, declaring it null and void, in September 1980. He ordered the invasion of Iran with - between others - intention of securing the entire Shatt al-Arab for Iraq. Was Iraq in control of entire Shatt al-Arab in 1988? Is it in control of entire Shatt al-Arab today?
No?
Well, if the answer is negative, then how can you then declare Iraq as 'victorious' - if it did not reach even this minimalistic aim of the war?
Tom does really this review need to be answered!
Regardless of the real motives for wars and political decisions, we kept Shatt Arabs for ten years through the military machine (fight), was half returned to Iran in 1990/91 through a political decision, as explained above. Does Iranians recovered by fighting or victory? (No) then no honor for them.
TomCooper كتب: What I can only guess you're trying to talk about is the AIM-54A, i.e. its 'Iran export variant'. And that, dear Hawkeye, is an entirely different story. Then, in order to discuss this topic with me, you'll first have to come out with some 'hard' data. Namely, first of all I need to know, in your opinion:

- a) how comes we're now discussing this topic, when the official IrAF opinion during the war was that Iranian F-14s are inoperational and can't deploy AIM-54As in combat?
- b) how many AIM-54As were fired by the Iranians (despite the Iraqi opinion that Iranian F-14s were inoperational) and,
- b) how many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by Iranian AIM-54As (despite the Iraqi opinion that Iranian F-14s were inoperational)?

Kindly answer me these questions, then we can discuss this topic.
Honestly I meant 54A just surprised how i written 54C! To me unable to answer these questions, but what i can do is pass this question to one of my relatives because he is one of most air battles fought on MIG-23, any details i will bring it back here.
TomCooper كتب: Oh, you can read it already now. It's described on one of our forum pages, and then to great extension.

But, good you mentioned this topic: have you got an official IrAF post-mission report about the sortie that resulted in this clash? Have you got anything, any kind of document from the IrAF confirming/denying this claim?
:)) No Seriously!
There is a new Iranian graphics video recently issued, show two Iranian F-4 shot down two RSAF F-15s afraid that depends as a source in the future!
TomCooper كتب: Who is Tony Scott and why should he be relevant
Film directed to Top Gun, American action drama film directed by Tony Scott.
TomCooper كتب: Aha. And I should now be 'guilty' of 'bias towards Iran' - precisely because you don't even know what's 'RWR' (for your information, that's short of 'Radar Warning Receiver'), not to talk about effects of AWG-9's emissions upon the Sirena-2 RWR?

Really, no pun intended: but, do you understand that you're trying to discuss this topic from a hopelessly outclassed point of view?
Ok, OK take it easy keep cool, I can see you know something about Aviation, but I spent two years at the College of Iraqi Air Force 1996/98 Tikrit, I've born between military family of pilots and aviation books and air battles narrations, however my criticize was on Iranian allegations and fairy tales, not devices.
TomCooper كتب: Can you provide original report about Rifai's supposed 'accident' (from 1984, if I recall this correctly)?
Aha here we go! So when Iranians claims shot down an Iraqi aircraft directly published in green color on acig, and when Iraqis deny it most newspapers and websites and global sources confirm loss alone is no more become a source of doubt needs to be confirmed !and How fair…
آخر تعديل بواسطة Hawkeye في الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 2:12 am، تم التعديل مرة واحدة.

mack8
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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 1:18 am

I've been following this tit for tat, and if i may respectfully interfere:

I would like to urge Tom and our iraqi hosts here to calm. Arguing is not going to solve anything , especially in a domain like air war history. I can understand the reason for frustration for both Tom and many iraqi members, however, i'd like to point out the following: there isn't yet a definitive account , almost 100% accurately showing what really happened , who shot down who and how many, when, where, and other similar details, for the aerial wars (be it Europe or Pacific etc.) from the SECOND WORLD WAR! This happening with supposedly fully open secret archives, veteran memories, and an army of researchers. The human factor is the variable. Everyone overclaimed their wins and downplayed losses since day one of aerial warfare, intentional or not. Japanese, american, german, british you name it, it happens over and over.

Now, in a modern air war like the Iran-Iraq one, with it's many specifics (secret/ destroyed archives, dictatorships, lack of veterans willing to talk, or not able to, or being a part of a system that supports a certain version of history, you name it), it will be 1000 times more difficult to achieve even the relative accuracy of other air war accounts. It's just not going to happen, not in the next few decades anyway, but probably never.

However, there is still a lot to write about. IIWIA was a very good book on how the iranians and iranian pilots saw the air war of 1980-1988, it shows it through their eyes. It does a very good job at that, it's a fascinating read. However going back to the never ending subject of claims vs. losses, whether is the iranians or the iraqis (or israelis, for example) taking at face value what any of them say in regards to how many OPPONENTS they got is a sure thing to move AWAY from finding the relative truth.

Like in all there other air wars, those men, whether iranians or iraqis, where in a fight to the death. They were fighting to survive, and to defeat their opponent. In the heat and adrenaline of the moment, they WANTED to see that opponent shot down, burning, crashed, they wanted to see that missile hit, they wanted to see they achieved something to rely back to squadron/base/leadership. But excitement and adrenalin can make one see many things that did not really happen. It's not anyone's fault, it's how it is.

Now regarding this particular air war, to get closer to the relative truth it is much more useful to have whatever one side CLAIMS as informative and useful for reference, but devote the maximum attention to the other side's admitted losses. In IIWIA, the iranians claim 470 iraqi fixed wing and 200 helicopters shot down (not sure if only air-to air, or including AA and ground losses), is that right? Now it appears the iraqi side mention about 250 aircraft and helicopters lost under combat conditions, not sure if including accidents. If that is the case, even if say a percentage of iraqi losses are due to accidents then the iranians overclaimed "only" 3 or 4 times more, which actually is not even that bad at all, some other air forces overclaim sometimes TEN times more! I am not sure to the extent of the iraqi claims though, i know from IIWIA that the iranians apparently admitted to losing 280 helicopters to all causes, and i actually tried to have a rough figure of how many fixed wing they lost by substracting known deliveries from the list of remaining airframes at the end of the book. I think the losses figure to all causes, accidents, combat, ground etc. was close to about 200.

So, while obviously not 100% accurate, those figures give a rough idea to what each side lost, to all causes. All other factors aside i would think each respective side should know best how many, where and how they lost them, and in that respect, whether iraqi or iranian, they should be given credence, even above human witnesses of the opposite side, because as said above , the human factor is prone to excitement and adrenaline induced view of what really happened. Of course, even those figures won't be 100% accurate, but that's the closest you're going to get.

I think that many here will really look very much forward to the iraqi side of the story. Something like the IIWIA, but from the iraqi perspective. It doesn't matter how many iranian aircraft they will claim to have destroyed as opposed to how many the iranians lost, but seeing the 1980-88 air war through THEIR eyes as well will be absolutely fascinating. Of course in such a case, you will be sure to attract the ire of many iranians, but these things comes with the package i guess!

In regards to the difficulties of publishing today, while obviously i do not work in this area so maybe i don't know all the ins and outs, well, imagine this: i am sure our iraqi hosts here, which i'm certain MUST contain some members of the Iraqi Armed Forces, will do whatever they can to help, for instance, in promoting an Iraqi perspective of the 1980-88 ( or even better 1980-2003!) airwar book in Iraq. In fact i'm thinking that such a book will be a required lecture for every member of Iraqi Air Force, surely! Done right, and with well informed and helpful peoples, this could mean thousands of books sold in Iraq alone. Plus there will be surely a very high interest in certain audiences in other parts of the world as well. I for one, would be absolutely thrilled to buy such a book!

So in conclusion, lets all calm down. I do not wish to give anyone a lecture, far from me, i just wanted to help if possible in diffusing this unfortunate argument. I am sure Tom and his work is held in high esteem here, and even seemingly scathing criticism is not ill-intended. Similarly, i'm sure our iraqi hosts would be grateful for same in return.

mack8

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة Hawkeye » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 2:00 am

TomCooper كتب: Would you like to say there were no Western/European mercenaries flying with the IrAF? Are you ready to swear this is 100% truth?

And if there were 'none', as practically all of your sources insist, how comes one of the French AF-pilots 'loaned' by the AdA to Thompson-CSF and then deputated to Iraq where he flew Mirages for years, has earned himself the nick-name 'Arab'?
European mercenary pilots, was only in seventies when Iraqi pilots refuse to involved in operations against Kurdish rebellion no more, When Saddam came to power there were so strict restrictions either on civil aviation (airlines) So for that was no mercenaries (why!) because Saddam was wants to be completely confident of implementation of orders, Europeans or foreigners will be outside the scope of implementation of sanctions and Saddam wants to carry out the death penalties against defaulters, therefore blame foreigners pilots does not work with Saddam, for this reason was NO mercenary pilots in Iraq-Iran war, rather even Egyptians volunteer pilots Saddam was whimper of their participation.

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 4:09 pm

ha. well I went to the iraqi military attache and all I got was a 60th year anniversary of the iraqi army book! (that I had already!). LOL.

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 8:12 pm

TomCooper كتب:Final 'volley'...
OK!

No, you don't know - because, as you observed yourself - this 'documentation' that is available is badly pampered.
sure. no documents are 100%...
Just one example: if the IrAF says 'we've lost 3 MiG-25s throughout the entire war', but one then easily obtains evidence that at least 2, more likely 4-5 additional planes (additional to these 3 'officially confirmed') were 'written off' (note: 2 of them after returing to base in badly-damaged condition; the other was shot out of the skies and crashed in the middle of Arak, in view of only about 1 Million of eyewitnesses) - then it's easy to conclude that your 'documentation' is at least 75%, more likely something like 100-125% off.
"officially confirmed" by who?
Of course, I do not think that more than the usually admitted 64 Su-20/22s have been lost, as reported on the (full) transcription of the IrAF study titled 'An Analytical Study on the Causes of Iraqi Aircraft Atrittion During the Iran-Iraq War' ('Top Secret' IrAF Document from 1989; sorry, it seems I'm the only one having a copy at hand).
good! why don't you show us!
However, when that study concludes with 'we've lost 168 aircraft shot down by Iranians' (that's without helicopters which were operated by the IrAAC), sorry, I can't avoid to conclude, 'yup, and add 75% more to have a complete figure'.
why would you do so? do you have concrete evidence for more than that number of aircraft being shot down?
And since 75% of 168 is (still) 126...and the list with 200+ IrAF pilots known to have been shot down is readily available... well, then whatever anybody wants to tell me: the actual probable number of IrAF aircraft lost during the Iran-Iraq War goes well over 250, probably in direction of 300.
would those "iraqi pilots" refer to the gulf as "persian gulf" and be called "soleiman" instead of "suleiman"? What I am saying is... you should maybe double check if THAT piece of info you have is 100% accurate itself ;)
As said: you can now explain me whatever you like. You can ignore the APX-80, or problems with Sirena etc.


so why wasn't the Iraqi air force anihilated completely in 2 days? I mean they had:
-crap planes
-crap pilots
-no BVR weapons
-awful GCI
-no ESM
-compromised IFF
-no RWRs let alone ECM!
-Short ranged aircraft
-And far too close to Iran!
You can ignore another study I've got, documenting the IrAF spending US$ 2 billion for (fruitless) development of ECM-systems to counter the AWG-9.


Would be interested to hear about this! $2Bn? That's about 15% of Iraq's defence budget of the time...
You can ignore lists of downed Iraqi pilots, photos of wreckage of downed IrAF aircraft,


Do you have a verified list of shot down Iraqi pilots?
Do you have a list of airframes shot down?
you can continue to insist on that other list found by the Americans (and obviously based on the study I've got)


That "study" was actually a presidential secretariat document post 1991 detailing aircraft losses from the 1991 war! the bit about losses during the war with Iran was purely coincidental. It was not written in 1989, but after the 1991 war and thus is based on a different set of data entirely! (since it takes into account losses during the invasion of Kuwait for example). And like it or not, that is about the best OFFICIAL data we've ever seen from the Iraqi side detailing their losses! I don't know why you are so averse to it!
etc. I say: I can ignore all of your argumentation, because sheer evidence is contradicting the basis of your standpoint. Period.
show us! We are truly interested in seeing it. If its available to buy I'll order it tomorrow! I am really curious and interested in your works and you know I always look out to buy your latest works and have been a big fan of yours for 14+ years!
...ah, connect me with whoever you like. I'm open for any contacts to sources - and not expecting anything at all. So, there can be no further disapointment.
I will see what I can do...
Yup, and there are plenty of things you simply don't understand or don't know. For example, you don't know that for much of the 1970s and 1980s, the Westerners considered anything of what we nowadays know is 'MiG-23BN' for 'MiG-27'.
But the Iranians certainly knew of the MiG23BN (since it bombed tehran in 22 september)... the claim was that the soviets were flying MiG27K out of Iraq in a "top secret" test missions and were shot down by Iran etc... plus all the other claims... MiG25BMs, "belgian mercenary pilots" flying Iraq's missions against Siri Larak etc...

And if you like 'fantastic claims', then why don't mention Baghdad Observer's rubbish about 'Russian Mi-24 delivered to Iraq for testing purposes and armed with AT-6s has shot down a Phantom'?
because none of us believe that :D whereas a lot of the myths created by IIWIA are repeated like gospel ;)
Why don't you actually want to realize that your claim about 19 F-14s shot down is also based on little else but fantasy? 5 F-14s, OK. If you want, 6-7, also 'fine'. But 19... 8-}
I didn't say "19 shot down" ... re-read what I wrote... Iran lost 19 airframes? correct?

Would you like to say there were no Western/European mercenaries flying with the IrAF? Are you ready to swear this is 100% truth?
Never heard of any. If there were I'll believe it. But simply I've not read any evidence of any such "thing"...
And if there were 'none', as practically all of your sources insist, how comes one of the French AF-pilots 'loaned' by the AdA to Thompson-CSF and then deputated to Iraq where he flew Mirages for years, has earned himself the nick-name 'Arab'?
was he an instructor/test pilot? There were lots of foreign instructors in Iraq. Did this fellow fly a single combat mission?
Yup, we should have explained that the IrAF has hidden its fighter planes inside HASes. Guess that would make it appear much more 'heroic'...
actually if I remember the myth was that Iraq flew its planes to neighbouring countries to escape... and neither of these are true (as we both know).
'Embargo'...? And mid during this 'embargo' the Soviets started deliveries of MiG-25s to Iraq.
no. Aircraft only became operational after the soviets lifted the embargo.
Please, get serious: you don't believe what you say, first and foremost.
why not answer all our questions? They are serious questions, and if not, tell us why not.
...what a surprise, considering any F-4 could take four times as many bombs as any MiG-21, and still remain airborne for three times longer... You do understand that if one flies planes that carry less and have a shorter range, then one needs flying such planes much more often?
but it didn't did it... because it had a 600% higher chance of getting shot down than the MiG21.
I was waiting for this to come.

OK, they were not affraid. And as next, and because F-14s didn't hit anything, and were inoperational, Hayder is now going to explain us why to hell did Saddam - note: Saddam personally - launch a diplomatic offensive in 1986, with the aim of curbing operations of the IRIAF F-14-fleet through spreading rumours that many of Iranian Tomcat-pilots would defect.
never heard of this... in 1986 Iraq was rather busy with more pressing matters like the loss of Faw for them to give much talk about F14s! (no matter how much you may like them!).
C'mon, Hayder: enlighten us. Why doing that if the F-14s were flying 'perhaps a few sorties for parades in Tehran'?


because they didn't do that.
Why doing that, why investing US$2 billion in development of ECM? Why scanning the Iranian airspace 24/7 during eight years of war for any trace of AWG-9 emissions? Why losing ONLY and exclusively IrAF's best-equipped and best-flown aircraft to F-14s? Hell: why claiming 19 of them as shot down?

Because F-14s were 'inoperational'?

Oh my, why am I wasting my time with this... :-??
I mean, I know you're a fan of the F14. But really you should approach the 1980-88 war without the F14 fixation! Really no one else in that war was as fixated about it as you (not even the Iranians themselves!).

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء يوليو 03, 2013 10:33 pm

That "study" was actually a presidential secretariat document post 1991 detailing aircraft losses from the 1991 war! the bit about losses during the war with Iran was purely coincidental. It was not written in 1989, but after the 1991 war and thus is based on a different set of data entirely! (since it takes into account losses during the invasion of Kuwait for example). And like it or not, that is about the best OFFICIAL data we've ever seen from the Iraqi side detailing their losses! I don't know why you are so averse to it!
The list/numbers regarding IrAF losses during the Iran-Iraq war , is it available anywhere by any chance? Or is it possible to post the basic numbers here? That would be extremely interesting, thanks.

Hawkeye, that appears to be a Mi-24D type, the launchers on the stubs look like they are for AT-2 Swatters.

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة Hawkeye » السبت يوليو 27, 2013 4:14 am

mack8 كتب:I've been following this tit for tat, and if i may respectfully interfere:

I would like to urge Tom and our iraqi hosts here to calm. Arguing is not going to solve anything , especially in a domain like air wa the iranians claim 470 iraqi fixed wing and 200 helicopters shot down (not sure if only air-to air, or including AA and ground losses), is that right? Now it appears the iraqi side mention about 250 aircraft and helicopters lost under combat conditions, not sure if including accidents. If that is the case, even if say a percentage of iraqi losses are due to accidents then the iranians overclaimed "only" 3 or 4 times more, which actually is not even that bad at all, some other air forces overclaim sometimes TEN times more! I am not sure to the extent of the iraqi claims though, i know from IIWIA that the iranians apparently admitted to losing 280 helicopters to all causes, and i actually tried to have a rough figure of how many fixed wing they lost by substracting known deliveries from the list of remaining airframes at the end of the book. I think the losses figure to all causes, accidents, combat, ground etc. was close to about 200.
mack8
Now I became a good chance to talk nearly every day to the old Iraqi Air Force Commander,I spoke with the leader in everything that goes on in your mind, regarding this aspect in particular ( Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88 ) in total Iraqi air force lost 223 aircraft during the eight year war with Iran ( Between fixed wing,helicopter,bombers,transport ) 37 of them by air engagements, NO MORE,
What I have to do now: find the correct independent hands to put all the documents, photos and interviews with his hand, and publish it to the world, Mr. Tom Cooper reports based on allegations, and we based on official statement "Undeniable".

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » السبت يوليو 27, 2013 12:43 pm

yes that sounds correct. Fixed wing losses in the 130-145 range plus another 100 helicopters.

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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الخميس مارس 31, 2016 12:11 am


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Re: Losses of Iraqi aircraft 1980 - 88

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الخميس مارس 31, 2016 12:29 am

the edits have to be done in an accurate and clear manner.

we need to state SOURCES.

and the arguments used:

Iraq only lost 37 aircraft in air to air combat and a total of 147 fixed wing aircraft in combat. They lost less fighters than Iran despite their aircraft being lower tech and flying 5x more combat sorties than their iranian counterparts.

That is the consistent message we should get across.

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