MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

المشرف: التوبوليف العراقية

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TomCooper
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اشترك في: الأربعاء نوفمبر 03, 2010 11:01 am

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الأربعاء مايو 18, 2011 9:21 am

Mirage F1 كتب:Dear Mr.Tom Cooper I Rely enjoy when I read your book but my father who was one of iraqi airforce high rank shocked when he read it because many of information excuse me for that are not correct
Iraqi Pilots approve them self as a heroes by shout down F-14 by mig-21 and achieve air superiority over battle field . so i will very happy if you need any information about iraqi air force

...
أخي العزيز حيدر وضع الغرب هالة كبيرة بخصوص الـf-14 و صارروخ الفونيكس في احد الأشتباكات الجوية بين العتيدة الـMig-21 و التومكات استطاع الطيار الأيرانية من الاقفال عن بعد على الميك 21 متجنباً القتال القريب و اطلاق صاروخ الفونيكس الغريب في المسألة ان الصاروخ اصطدم بالميك وحطم اجزاء من الدفة و لم ينفجر و استطاع الطيار العراقي من العودة الى القاعدة بسلامة من دون ان يصدق
اخي العزيز سياسة كذب كذب حتى تصدق نفسك سياسة اتبعها الغرب للترويج عن اسلحتهم و اتبعها الكثير ممن كانوا يشترون هذه الأسلحة لهذا اقنع القادة الأيرانيون طياريهم بالتطور التقني الكبير لطائرات التومكات وهي ستكون الحصان الفائز في اي منازلة حتى استطاعت الميك21 من اسقاط التومكات بعد منازلة جوية استمرت بحدود العشريين دقيقة وذلك لان قابلية الدوران للتومكات اسرع و اكبر بفضل جناحاها المتحركان لكن الطيار العراقي و مسيطر المقاتلات البطلان ضلا يحاولان حتى يأس الطيار الأيراني من الدوران معطيأ الفرصة للميك من ان تسقطه و تسقط معها اسطورة الـF-14
Thanks for your kind offer, Mirage. Much appreciated.

I do not know what book you or your father might have read (sorry, but you're not mentioning the title), so can't say what displeased your father so much. As mentioned above, my co-authors and me always report the information that is made available to us. We do so without any prejudice, predilection or favourising, in decent, honourable and honest fashion. The aim of our research is to compile and present the information as it was seen by our sources and explained by them, not as anybody - regardless if in the West or anywhere else - might want to see it. So, if there is anything like "policy" of ours, this policy is not that of "lie" or "favourising Western weapons", but the one of explaining the story as experienced and as recalled by the people who were there, or as recorded in relevant documentation.

Let me offer you one example: I have only recently completed the work on the Volume 2 of the book-series "Arab MiGs", which is to be published in October this year. This book series is aiming at reconstructing the history of such Arab air forces like the Algerian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Syrian etc., which are next to unknown in the public outside their own countries (you can have a "sneak-preview" at the Volume 1 of this series here). This is a topic grossly neglected not only "at home", i.e. in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq etc, but outright ignored in the West. If you think there is a "policy" or intention to "lie" about Arab air forces in the West, then somebody has to explain me how comes that 99% of publishers in the West do not even want to publish books on Arab air forces? On the contrary, we had to establish our own publisher for this project.

Preparations for this project are going on since something like 25 years, in the course of which we interviewed - between others - the late Air Marshal Tahir Zaki (EAF), the late Air Marshal Mustafa Shalabi el-Hinnawy (EAF), Air Marshal Alaa el-Din Barakat (EAF ret.), Lieutenant-General Arif Abd ar-Razzaq (IrAF ret.), Air Marshal Badr Domair (EAF, ret.), Air Vice Marshal Mohammad Okasha (EAF ret.), Air Vice Marshal Mamdouh Taliba (EAF ret.), Brigadier-General Ahmad Sadik (IrAF ret.), Air Commodore Farouk el-Ghazzawy (EAF, ret.), the late Air Commodore Mustafa Hafez (EAF), Air Commodore Fikry al-Gindy (EAF ret.), Air Commodore Fuad Kamal (EAF ret.), Air Commodore Gabr Ali Gabr (EAF ret.), Air Commodore Abdel Moneim el-Tawil (EAF ret.), Group Captain Kapil Bhargava (Indian AF ret.), Group Captain Saif-ul-Azam (Pakistani- then Bangladesh AF, ret.), Wing Commander Kamal Zaki (EAF ret.), Wing Commander Talaat Louca (EAF ret.), Wing Commander Usama Sidqi (EAF ret.), etc., etc., etc. - including a number of people we can't mention in the public (particularly so in the case of Syrians).

We have got extensive and endlessly-kind help from nearly countless family-members, particularly so from Egypt, who kindly provided so many materials (pilot log-books, photographs, various recollections etc.) from their family-archives. We've had widows, sons, even grand-sons digging for hours and days through boxes with "papers" left behind by their loved ones, in order to help - particularly so in cases of so many completely forgotten pilots and officers.

The provided materials are "installed" into our publications - as far as possible - on "1:1" basis. That means: we practically copy-paste them into the manuscript, with an absolute minimum of editing, nearly as "raw" as they were supplied. Indeed, because some of provided materials are as extensive as not to fit into such books, we're going to publish them separately, in form of separate articles, later on (here another example: what should one do with the story of an Egyptian pilot who flew 8,650 hours on fast jets - from Meteors and Vampires, via MiG-15s, MiG-17s, Su-7s, Mirages etc. - in five wars? His story alone actually belongs into a separate book!).

Sadly, there is also a "negative" side of this. I.e. there are plenty of cases where people express their support for our project, even promise they're going to send this or that, and then not only fail to do so, but also ignore our attempts to re-establish communication. For example, during a recent conference in the USA, I contacted three different ex-IrAF Generals, and at least one of them "promised" we're going to meet again, to talk, to exchange e-mails etc. Eventually, nothing happened at all: he replied to my first e-mail only and then disappeared like a submarine. We located another former IrAF General in Egypt, and asked him for help. However, the same happened there again. And so forth..

(BTW, something similar can be said about a number of bookshop-owners from the Arab world, nearly everywhere, from Cairo, via Riyadh and Baghdad to Sharjah. At first they are optimistic, they like our books, they "promise" (one even swore) they're going to bring our books and thus make them easily available for the Arab people to read. But then they disappear and when contacted (per e-mail, for example), they do not even react.)

Actually, if it was not for one of the administrators of this forum, who shared so much from his private archive, and offered so much help in such a kind and patient fashion, the coverage of the Iraqi AF would be practically impossible. I feel indepted to him for the rest of my life.

So, in summary, I can't prevent you or your father from thinking there is some kind of "negative policy" behind our publications. But, I have no bad conscience, since I know how hard and how sincerely we're approaching our "duty" in this case. Thus, in your place, I would try to have a closer look at the circumstances under which they came into being.

If anybody wants to help us reconstruct the history of any Arab air force - in a fair, respectful, competent and decent fashion - please, feel free to contact me. Do so in the way you prefer: "in public", directly here on this forum, or per "private message" function, or via ACIG.org forum. Once you reached me, I can provide my e-mail address, that's no problem either. Any help is most welcome and much appreciated and everybody doing so can be sure his/her materials are going to be put to good use, and used in fashion that will make them proud.

raaft
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اشترك في: الاثنين مارس 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » الأربعاء مايو 18, 2011 3:19 pm

TomCooper كتب:
raaft كتب:السلام عليكم
اسراب الميك-25 عام 1988 هي 87 و97 و96
المتبقي منها هو 18 طائرة بعد حرب 1991 و8 في روسيا باقية هناك حتى الان
دمجت في سرب واحد هو 96
Salam, Raaft,
sorry to answer in English, but my Arabic is rather "rudimentary".

You mention No.96, 97 and No.87 Squadrons.

I know about No.96, which was a MiG-25PDS(e) (interceptor variant) unit, and No.84, which flew MiG-25RBs (recce/bomber variant).

Can you say more about No.97 and No.87 Squadrons? For example, what variants they flew and where were they stationed?
mfh2000 كتب:السلام عليكم

ارفق مع هذه المشاركه صوره لطائره ميغ 25 عراقيه في روسيا ولكن لا اعرف تأريخ الصوره ولا طراز الطائره
وتقبلوا تحياتي
That plane appears to be a MiG-25PDS(e): note rails for R-40RT/DT ("AA-6 Acrid") air-to-air missiles under its wings.

The MiG-25RB had no such rails; the MiG-25PU two-seat conversion trainer had them, but couldn't use Acrids.


sq 84 is for helicopter hughes500 and not for mig-25

TomCooper
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اشترك في: الأربعاء نوفمبر 03, 2010 11:01 am

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الخميس مايو 19, 2011 9:23 am

Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

OK, so if No.84 Squadron flew MD.500s, what unit flew MiG-25RBs? No.97 or No.87 Squadron?

raaft
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اشترك في: الاثنين مارس 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » الخميس مايو 19, 2011 7:11 pm

TomCooper كتب:Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

OK, so if No.84 Squadron flew MD.500s, what unit flew MiG-25RBs? No.97 or No.87 Squadron?
hi tom
sq97 for mig-25 RB
sq87 for mig-25 p, pd ,pds
sq 96 for mig-25 p, pd,pds
raaft

raaft
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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » السبت يونيو 11, 2011 9:06 pm

TomCooper كتب:Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

OK, so if No.84 Squadron flew MD.500s, what unit flew MiG-25RBs? No.97 or No.87 Squadron?
hello tom
all mig-25 deliverd to iraq air force about 40 aircraft
and mig25PD deliverd in 1985 in sq 96
and mig25p wich deliverd in 1981 upgred to PDS
in sq87
till now there is 8 mig25 in russia for overhull
this information from officer in sq87
raaft

raaft
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اشترك في: الاثنين مارس 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » السبت يونيو 11, 2011 9:18 pm

TomCooper كتب:Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

OK, so if No.84 Squadron flew MD.500s, what unit flew MiG-25RBs? No.97 or No.87 Squadron?
hello tom
in 1981 sq 87 contains mig25 R and P
and later sq 97 was for R only
in 1985 iraqi enginer upgrade R to RB \
by make it to hold 8 bomb 400kg
for each bomb
mig-25 downed 19 iranian fighter in fighting
this information form officer engineer in sq87
raaft

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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الخميس يونيو 16, 2011 9:10 pm

نقلا عن شاهد عيان فأن الخبراء السوفيت المشرفين على طائرات
MiG-25R
و بعد ان وصلت لهم التوجيهات من قيادتهم
وليس العراقيين هم من قاموا بالتحوير المطلوب على طائرات الميغ-25 ار بعد ان علموا بنية العراقيين بتحوير الطائرات و يقول شاهد العيان هذا ان الخبراء السوفيت لم يسمحوا للعراقيين بالقيام بهذا الاجراء وان عملية التحوير لم تستغرق لا وقتا و لا جهدا كبيرا لان الطائرات بألاصل كانت مجهزة لهذا الغرض و الامر لم يتطلب الا اجراء توصيل للاسلاك الموجدة في الطائرة وبذلك غدت هذه الطائرات قادرة على مهام القصف
MiG-25RB

TomCooper
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اشترك في: الأربعاء نوفمبر 03, 2010 11:01 am

Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الاثنين يونيو 27, 2011 7:29 am

raaft كتب:
TomCooper كتب:Thanks a lot, much appreciated!

OK, so if No.84 Squadron flew MD.500s, what unit flew MiG-25RBs? No.97 or No.87 Squadron?
hello tom
in 1981 sq 87 contains mig25 R and P
and later sq 97 was for R only
in 1985 iraqi enginer upgrade R to RB \
by make it to hold 8 bomb 400kg
for each bomb
mig-25 downed 19 iranian fighter in fighting
this information form officer engineer in sq87
raaft
Thanks Raaft.

The situation regarding the equipment of MiG-25RBs was something like this:
- as delivered to Iraq, the type has had its Peleng-D nav/attack platform installed, but the Soviets refused to deliver bomb-shackles and FAB-500T bombs that would enable the use of the aircraft for attack purposes;
- in early 1985, the IrAF then modified one of its MiG-25RBs with bomb-shackels and Spanish-made 250kg bombs (derived from US-made Mk.82s), and has shown this aircraft also to the Soviet Air Force attache in Baghdad;
- the Soviet officer in question "alerted" Moscow about this development, and
- "all of a sudden", the Soviets delivered their own bomb-shackles and FAB-500Ts to Iraq for use on MiG-25RBs.

raaft
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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة raaft » الثلاثاء يونيو 28, 2011 4:13 pm

the serial no. of the mig25 was three no. in 1981 later its changed
for example no. 100 was for dual mig25 become 25100 later
and 105 for mig25R become 25105
and so on for the other

TomCooper
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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 9:53 am

Very interesting. Thanks for this information.

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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » السبت سبتمبر 10, 2011 7:00 pm

I have a question for you Mr. Tom Cooper
Depending on what was published by you in the acig...


http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml

Shows that as many as 14 Iraqi MIG-25s may have been shot down by Iranian fighters during the period from 1982 to 1988. I do not know the accuracy of your sources, but is that a real number and whether the Iranians were able to shot down all this number of Iraqi MiGs -25.

TomCooper
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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الخميس سبتمبر 29, 2011 8:27 pm

Sadly, there is no definite answer to your question, Tango.

The list posted on the link above was compiled back in the 1990s, and never completed. It was also never updated with additional information we've received since 2004-5 or so. Still, it contains "only" some 11-14 out of a total of about 20-24 claims for Iraqi MiG-25s Iran issued during the war.

I think there is nobody definitely sure about exactly how many IrAF MiG-25s were shot down in war with Iran, since a) documentation about relevant IrAF units is non-existing (at least "not available"), and b) corresponding Iranian documentation was either destroyed by the IRGC, or heavily "doctored".

Recently, Hayder and me have had a lenghty discussion about this issue on the ACIG.org forum, which left both of us not really "happy" to put it mildly. What is known about the IrAF MiG-25 losses is the following:

- The IrAF confirmed the loss of one MiG-25RB (together with its pilot) in 1982, to the IRIAF F-14s.

Already this case is a typical example for the present-times state of research about this topic. Namely, it is impossible to cross-examine this "confirmed loss", since there are no dependable Iranian sources on hnad. I.e. it remains unknown who exactly should have shot down that MiG-25RB. The latest official standpoint in Tehran is: "the IRIAF never shot down any Iraqi MiG-25s, only the IRGC did". However, in 1982, the IRGC was completely and hopelessly out of condition to even touch any Iraqi MiG-25: they simply had no weapons to do so. The IRIAF can't prove the IRGC wrong, since the IRIAF documenation for period 1980-1982 is non-existing: nobody knows where it is. Thus, all that can be said in this case is that there are four different claims for Iraqi MiG-25s shot down by the IRIAF F-14 during the year of 1982, that the Iraqis confirm one loss, but at different time than the Iranians claimed one...

- In May 1982 a MiG-25RB was claimed "damaged" by an IRIAF F-14, "west of Dezful". Iraqi sources denied any loss of MiG-25s at that time and place, but admitted the possibility that the plane was subsequently written off.

- In June 1984 a MiG-25RB flown by the same pilot later shot down over Esfahan (see bellow) was damaged by the IRIAF F-14s during a recce sortie over the Tehran area; the plane should've been written off following an emergency landing in Iraq.

- In July 1985 a MiG-25RB flown by different pilot was also damaged by the IRIAF F-14s while underway over Iran. Once again, the plane made a safe emergency landing, but was subsequently written off.

Both losses (from 1984 and 1985) were confirmed by unofficial Iraqi sources, but - like all other losses that occurred after emergency landings in Iraq - are not mentioned as such in the most dependable official IrAF document about its losses during the War with Iran, namely the "Analytical Study of Iraqi Aircraft Attrition During the Iran-Iraq War", prepared by the IrAF Intelligence Dpt. in 1992.

- The same is also the case with the MiG-25PDS that was first damaged by an IRIAF F-14A and then finished by cannon fire from an IRIAF F-5E, in June 1986. I found two independent eyewitnesses who saw this plane after its emergency landing in Iraq, and both confirmed the plane was subsequently taken appart to serve as source of spares (i.e. written off). Also, the Iranian F-5E pilot in question was later shot down by Iraqi SAMs and became a PoW in Iraq. During his interrogation, the Iraqis asked him to tell them how he had shot down that MiG-25 (and this is according to Iraqi, not Iranian sources). I.e. the IrAF knew that he "shot down" a MiG-25 while flying an F-5E, and therefore were confirming him that claim. Still, this loss was never mentioned as such in the official IrAF documentation about its losses during the war with Iran....

- Iraqi as well as Russian sources admit the loss of one MiG-25RB due to an engine-related issue (turbine vanes failure) in 1986. The pilot appears to have ejected safely. However, since this was a non-combat loss, it is also not mentioned in the IrAF documentation about its losses during the war with Iran.

- Another MiG-25RB was shot down - supposedly by IRGC HQ-2s or (ex-Libyan) SA-2s, but more likely by an IRIAF MIM-23B I-HAWK - over Esfahan, in February 1987. The pilot ejected safely and was captured by the IRGC. This loss is one of two confirmed by the IrAF documentation about its losses during the war with Iran.

- Finally, in November 1987 a MiG-25 was shot down over the mountains NW of Tehran in the course of a nocturnal attack on the TFB.1. US sources indicate this was a Soviet-owned and flown MiG-25BM, not an Iraqi example (the IrAF definitely never flew this variant). Iranian sources are "uncertain" about the fate of that plane, while the available Iraqi sources do not know about any such losses (which is little surprising if the plane was indeed Soviet-flown).

Back in 2006, I saw four MiG-25-wrecks at the scrapyard of the former al-Taqaddum AB: two of these have had their front fuselages removed. All were in a very poor condition, largely burned out and completely corroded, but two were visibly MiG-25RBs (see the photo bellow: they even had their bomb-shackles still underneath what was left of their wings), while the other two should've been MiG-25PDS'. A local source told me that all four were written off during the war with Iran.

My conclusion - based on what is known about deliveries of MiG-25s to Iraq, and about how many airframes remained operational by 16 January 1991 - is that the IrAF probably lost 3 MiG-25PDS' and 9 MiG-25RBs during the war (to all reasons, but foremost to combat). That would mean a total of 12 aircraft, 9-10 of these in combat. However, as mentioned above, I consider that figure anything but "definite".

For comparisson, as far as I can recall, Hayder's figures are different, and including 3 MiG-25PDS', 3 MiG-25RBs and 5 MiG-25PUs (to all reasons).

I doubt the IrAF suffered such attrtion in MiG-25PUs, though. Firstly, except for the CO of No.96 Squadron as of 1991 (who came to that position due to his "special" links), all the IrAF MiG-25 pilots I heard about were the "cream" of the air force, the best-of-the-best. Such people do not crash so many of expensive two-seat conversion trainers. 1-2 in all of the 1980s, "Ok", but not five of them. Rather than this, I think there is a mix-up in the documentation Hayder has got, in regards of the number of MiG-25PU delivered to Iraq (keep in mind that the latin letter "P" means "R" in Russian).
المرفقات
IrAF MiG-25RB Taqaddum AB Mar06A.jpg
IrAF MiG-25RB Taqaddum AB Mar06A.jpg (482.61 KiB) تمت المشاهدة 8465 مرةً

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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الاثنين أكتوبر 03, 2011 10:05 pm

Thanks, for the thorough explanation, sorry I still think that the figure was exaggerated.

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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الاثنين أكتوبر 24, 2011 9:53 am

That's why it is so important to keep on collecting whatever information is available about the history of Iraqi MiG-25 operations: the more facts (documents, participant recollections etc.) we could get, the more are we going to know.

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Re: MiG-25PDS and MiG-25RB

مشاركة بواسطة Hawkeye » الخميس نوفمبر 15, 2012 3:45 am

Not offend , but when i read Tom comments feel like blood pressure how it's far from fact..

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