Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

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mack8
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Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الجمعة يوليو 01, 2011 11:05 pm

Hi everyone.

It seems that over time there were plans and discussions acquire various combat aircraft for Iraq's Air Force , but for a multitude reasons the plans did not came to conclusion.

Regarding the 1958-2003 timeframe , the oldest i can think of ( please correct me if i'm wrong ) is F-86F Sabre.

I just saw Mr. Cooper's topic about the BAC Lightning in the sixties, and subsequent replies.

Apart from the Mirage F1 purchase( aircraft with a distinguished service record in Iraq's AF) , aparently Iraq was also in discussions to acquire the Jaguar, in the seventies.

Finally just before the Gulf War according to western sources , Iraq was planning to purchase aircraft like Mirage-2000E and Mirage -2000S ( two-seat strike ), Su-27, MiG-31, Alpha Jets and even Tu-22M!

Information about these plans , and possibly others i do not know about ( including helicopters too), are greatly apreciated. Many thanks!

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الجمعة يوليو 01, 2011 11:19 pm

Iraq had a contract to assemble 52 Mirage 2000S 2-seat strikers from France.
Along with that contract it also included local construction of 120 or so Alphajet aircraft to become the primary trainer of the Iraqi air force.
Iraq had also included as part of the "french deal" a plan to assemble an unknown number of AS 365F Dauphin 2 helicopters locally in Iraq.


With regards to the Soviet union, I know of no plans to buy TU22M or MiG31s. The SU-27 however was planned.Iraq had signed a contract in 1989 with the Soviet union to assemble locally 120 Mi28 helicopters locally in Iraq.

On a more historical footnote, when the "CENTO" a.k.a "Baghdad pact" was signed Iraq was gifted 5 F86 aircraft by the US. This was in 1955-1956. I don't know if these ever reached Iraq.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » السبت يوليو 02, 2011 6:19 pm

أعتقد كان العراق مهتم بشكل واضح بالحصول على طائرات التدريب البريطانية هوك وسارت المباحثات بين الجانبين الى مراحل متقدمة خلال الفترة 1988-1989. ولكن الحكومة البريطانية رفضت الموافقة على تزويد العراق بطائرات هوك . مما دفع العراق لان يختار طائرات الفا جيت كبديل

I think Iraq was clearly interested in obtaining the British Hawk training aircraft and the talks between the two sides went to the advanced stages during the period 1988-1989. But the British government refused to agree to supply Iraq with Hawk aircraft. Forcing Iraqan an alternative to choose Alpha Jet aircraft.

بالنسبة لطائرات
North American F-86 Sabre
فأنها وصلت فعلا للعراق مع أندلاع ثورة تموز 1958 ولكنها ظلت في صناديقها في المخازن حتى أعيدت الى أمريكا في وقت لاحق. وبعد مطالبة الجانب الامريكي .


For aircraft, North American F-86 Sabre, they actually arrived in Iraq with the outbreak of revolution in July 1958 but remained in their boxes in storage until returned to America later. After asking the U.S. side.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة iqhawk » الأحد يوليو 03, 2011 10:47 am

كان العراق على استعداد في المساهمة في انتاج مشروع المقاتلة سوبر ميراج 4000 في بداية الثمانينات

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الثلاثاء يوليو 05, 2011 11:38 pm

Thank you all for your valuable information provided, many details are new to me ( like the Mi-28 planned production or the Mirage-4000 interest etc.)

Sticking with the Mirages , according to info on the net it seems that just before the contract for the MiG-29s was signed, Iraq was seriously considering buying 60 Mirage-2000E at a reported $2 billion , but was compelled to abandon these plans because of monetary concerns. Is this correct?

Alos is there any info on how many Su-27 Iraq was intending to purchase?

Many thanks.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 1:03 am

Mack8.

Iraq did not abandon the Mirage 2000S (2 seat striker) purchase, but it was ended by Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and subsequent embargo. The number that Iraq planned on buying was 52 aircraft, and I believe it was intended as a replacement for MiG23BN/SU20 aircraft and were to be assembled in the new SAAD 23 (I am not sure of the number) complex which was to be Iraq's new aerospace "hub" that would undertake:
-Assembly of Mirage-2000S strike jets
-assembly/co production of Alphajet trainer
-Co-prodution of SA365F dauphin 2 helicopter
-Co-production of Mi28 helicopters
-Overhaul/MLU of Iraqi Mirage F1s
-speciality projects like the
-Adnan AEW aircraft
-Baghdad-1 airborne ground monitoring aircraft
-Boeing 727 Airborne Command post
-Dassault falcon 50 based Long Range reconnaissance aircraft
-Il-76 aerial Refuelling aircraft
etc...

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 1:47 am

Thanks for the clarification, i did re-checked the globalmilitary site and it only says Mirage-2000, not Mirage-2000E . I initially assumed that the planned deal for 60 Mirage-2000 and then plans for the 52 Mirage-2000S ( information posted here by you ) were separate.

On Mr . Cooper's website, i think the name for the Complex is SAAD-25. Also on that site , it is mentioned of plans to co-develop an non-nuclear variant of the french ASMP ( presumably for the Mirage-2000S ), plus co-developement of the brazilian MAA-1 AAM. ( among many other things ).Those were quite some impressive capabilities planned.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 2:24 am

The Iraqi Mirage 2000S was supposed to be a "de-nuclearised" version of the french airforce Mirage 2000N aircraft.

The specially developed Mirage 2000S for Iraq was later taken on by the French air force as the Mirage 2000D.

In terms of "cruise missiles" Iraq was developing a cruise missile based on the turbofan powered Mirach-100 drone that were built under licence in Iraq.

here's another view... (see behind the banshee drone viewtopic.php?f=25&t=293&start=15)

Iraq also had under development an 800km range ramjet cruise missile during the late 1980s. From the ASMP Iraq was interested mainly in technology transfer rather than buying actual missiles as they were rather less capable (lower range) and much more expensive than what Iraq wanted.
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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأربعاء يوليو 06, 2011 2:42 am

the above ababil ALCM had a range of 500km and payload of 250kg. I believe Iraq was interested in the "ASMP" purely to aid in the development of the ABABIL ALCM.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 1:44 pm

hayder كتب:Iraq had a contract to assemble 52 Mirage 2000S 2-seat strikers from France.
Along with that contract it also included local construction of 120 or so Alphajet aircraft to become the primary trainer of the Iraqi air force.
Iraq had also included as part of the "french deal" a plan to assemble an unknown number of AS 365F Dauphin 2 helicopters locally in Iraq.
Since I saw a number of related documents to this topic, first hand, let me add few observations here.

The background of all the relevant negotiations and contracts was provided already in the late 1960s and through 1970s. Iraq first wanted to obtain Mirage IIIs, back in 1967. France demanded oil-deliveries (no cash) in exchange; Iraq refused, and no contract was signed. In 1974, Iraq attempted to purchase Hawk T.Mk.1s and Jaguar GR.Mk.1s from the UK. The French, who had stakes in the Jaguar project, managed to interrupt these negotiations and attract Iraqi attention at their Mirage F.1s. Following extensive negotiations, an order for Mirage F.1s was issued and a contract signed, in June 1977.

The contract for Mirage F.1s was code-named "BAZ" (falcon in Arabic). Curiously, all the BAZ-contracts were signed with Thales, not with Dassault. There was not just one BAZ contract, but actually dozens of them, each relevant to another piece of equipment, starting with the airframe, weapon pylons, ejection seats, avionics, engines etc. So, they run from BAZ.100 upwards.

Why is this with BAZ-contract numbers important?

Well, because one of the BAZ-contracts from 1983 - when actually the majority of Mirages that were to be delivered to Iraq were ordered - stipulated an order for Mirage 2000s, a new air-to-air missile and two types of new air-to-ground missiles. Between others, and in addition to the development of such multi-role variants of the Mirage F.1, like F.1EQ-4 and F.1EQ-5, in accordance to that contract, Iraq financed the development of a strike-, two seat variant of the Mirage 2000, the MICA, the ASMP and the AS.30L with billions of Francs. Accordingly, during the following years, all such weapons were developed. We've seen the development of the Mirage 2000D and 2000N (the latter equipped with nuke-tipped ASMP, just as ordered by Iraq), we've seen the development of the MICA and its entry into service, and we've seen the maturing of the AS.30L into a combat ready weapon. Just, all of them entered service in France, not in Iraq.

Now, what was the reason for nearly nothing of these weapons reaching Iraq? Well, the reason(s) was/were actually multiple. Firstly, there were specific paragraphs of the BAZ contracts that caused a near-mutiny and a coup d'etat within the IrAF, in late 1983. Sufficient to say that even though Iraq continued financing some of these projects, and continued purchasing Mirage F.1EQs, because of that mutiny, no Mirage 2000s, MICAs, and ASMPs were ever delivered.

Secondly, although some 380+ rounds of AS.30Ls were delivered to Iraq, and many of these used during the war with Iran, local licence production was never launched. The reason in that case was the price, which proved far too high. Indeed, Iraq never paid for all the AS.30s delivered in the 1980s.

However, the IrAF was never interested in the Alpha Jet: it always wanted the Hawk. Thus, even though Iraqi (and Egyptian) test-pilots flew the Alpha Jet, and Iraq even helped Egypt purchase two batches of these aircraft, as well as to buy the licence for their manufacture in Egypt, the IrAF never acquired the Alpha Jet. Correspondingly, Iraq also never signed any orders for Alpha Jets, and these are not mentioned in any of BAZ contracts with a single word. And, because Iraq did not want the Alpha Jet, the Iraqis would not finance their production in Egypt and thus the Egyptians could not afford manufacture them. Thus, the rumours that there was a contract for licence manufacture of Alpha Jets in Iraq is just that, a rumour.

On the contrary, when the Egyptians managed to convince the British to sell them the licence for local production of the Embraer EMB.312 Tucano, the IrAF jumped at this opportunity and began purchasing Tucanos.

The Iraqi financing of the development of the Brazilian AAM-1 Piranha air-to-air missile (and also an anti-radar missile), run separately from the BAZ-contracts. It was launched as a back-up to MICA, in the late 1980s, and interrupted by the embargo from August 1990. That's one of major reasons why the Piranha (and the said Brazilian anti-radar missile) entered service only in recent years.
With regards to the Soviet union, I know of no plans to buy TU22M or MiG31s. The SU-27 however was planned.Iraq had signed a contract in 1989 with the Soviet union to assemble locally 120 Mi28 helicopters locally in Iraq.
The plan for acquisition of Su-27s was the only of the above-mentioned that had a serious background. Indeed, the Iraqi order for these, issued in 1989, was the reason that the IrAF collected only some 30+ out of 160 MiG-29s manufactured for this (all the others were stored in Russia, and subsequently sold to countries like Malaysia, Bangladesh, Burma/Myanamar, Yemen etc.).

On the contrary, while "considering" an acquisition of the Tu-22M, Iraq eventually decided to replace all of its Tu-22Bs with Su-24MKs.
On a more historical footnote, when the "CENTO" a.k.a "Baghdad pact" was signed Iraq was gifted 5 F86 aircraft by the US. This was in 1955-1956. I don't know if these ever reached Iraq.
Actually, the USA were pushing for delivery of 36 F-86 Sabres, including some 12 F-86K radar-equipped night-interceptors, already as of 1957. The British came in between and postponed this delivery with an explanation of their "special interests and connections" in Iraq. Eventually, the Americans lost patience: in early 1958, fifteen Iraqi pilots went to the USA to train on Sabres, and five F-86s - slanted to service entry with No.4 Squadron - were delivered to Habbaniya AB shortly before the 14 Tammouz Revolution. They were subsequently stored and returned to the USA in 1963. The full story about these negotiations, based on original documents, is to follow in the book "Arab MiGs, Volume 2", due out in October this year.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » السبت يوليو 16, 2011 10:50 pm

Very interesting info, again, many thanks for sharing Mr. Cooper.
What was so bad in that BAZ contract that caused a near-mutiny, if i may ask ? :-o

Thanks again.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة TomCooper » الأحد يوليو 17, 2011 8:19 pm

mack8 كتب:What was so bad in that BAZ contract that caused a near-mutiny, if i may ask ? :-o
Sorry, but more about that topic when the time comes.

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأحد فبراير 26, 2012 4:12 pm

Just found a little bit of info about MiG-31E for Iraq, don't know if it is 100% accurate, but it seems several machined intended for Iraq (not delivered due to the embargo) have been eventually inducted in the PVO in the nineties, secondly, at the time of 1990 embargo there were negotiations for the delivery at least 4 (?-must be just the initial delivery, an eventual contract should have been for alot more aircraft than 4 i would think) aircraft, while initial pilot training for first iraqi pilots for MiG-31 was in progress.

http://military.tomsk.ru/blog/topic-407.html

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الأحد فبراير 26, 2012 4:47 pm

well that is interesting Mack8.

whilst the MiG25 was certainly useful for Iraq, i don't know if Iraq could really afford or need something like a MiG31, and whether the soviets would clear it for delivery to Iraq. (don't forget even S300 system was refused delivery to Iraq in 1989)

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Re: Planned purchases for the Iraqi Air Force

مشاركة بواسطة mack8 » الأحد فبراير 26, 2012 5:37 pm

According to Y.Gordon, aparently the export MiG-31 was in the works from 1987, so i guess the soviet were anticipating to sell it. Who knows, maybe some more will surface about this deal, if it happened.

Oh and first time i read about the S-300 for Iraq today. :-o Probably they would have happily supplied them couple of years down the line (if the 1991 war didn't happen, of course).I think S-300 was offered for export publically (as oposed to initially only Warpac countries) in 1990 or 1991.

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