f16IQ for the iraqi air force

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hayder
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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الخميس أغسطس 04, 2011 10:26 am

i haven't heard anything about the Typhoon prices. But it would be about $100M per aircraft, more than double the price of the F16. However the Typhoon will come with Meteor missiles, so Iraq will need such an aircraft in future (even if only one squadron) for air superiority, that the F16s cannot offer.

in my view if Iraq does end up buying the f16, they will need the following to "complete" the airf force:

3x squadrons of F16 (54 aircraft) - $3Bn
2x squadrons of Rafale /SU35 for strike (36 aircraft) - $3Bn
2x squadrons of Typhoon as interceptor (36 aircraft) - $4Bn
3x squadrons of T50/A50 as "air patrol" fighter and low end strike. (54 aircraft) - $2Bn

that would give Iraq a good defensive air force (180 modern combat aircraft / fly up to 500 sorties a day in emergency) without costing too much money ($12Bn in total). They could split the purchase over 4 years and spend about $3Bn every year on airforce purchases.

by 2016, when they have all these assets in service, they could go and contract for 5th generation fighters like F35 or PAK-FA for delivery after 2020, ensuring Iraq has an air force competitive with its neighbours.

Of course the companies are keen on selling weapons to Iraq at a good price because they need to scare their "cash cows" (Saudi/Kuwait/UAE/Qatar) into upgrading their weapons. ;)
(a trend we can already see with the saudi purchase of Leopard 2 A7 tanks just after Iraq bought Abrams tanks)

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » الخميس أغسطس 04, 2011 10:35 pm

Hayder,

I'm curious as to why you assigned the strike role to a third type of aircraft (SU-35/Rafale). I totally understand the need for diversification of suppliers, but why the 3rd type of aircraft? I think the F-16 can do a decent job as a bomber (Israel and the US have used it effectively in the strike role, even at long ranges), and the Typhoons too can double as strike aircraft. The addition of the the SU-35/Rafale seems to be expensive ($1Bn more than F-16) and redundant (in role, not quantity).

If we assume Iraq needs a minimum of 4 interceptor squadrons; one assigned to each AD sector, it would be more practical to buy:

2x squadrons of F-16 (36 aircraft: stop gap air superiority capability, re designate to strike force later): $2Bn
4x squadrons (60 aircraft) of Typhoon as interceptors: $6Bn
2x squadrons (36 aircraft: delayed) of additional F-16s, or F-15E as strike: $2-3Bn
2x squadron T50 (or the cheaper Hawk) for the same role you mentioned: $1Bn (Hawk)-1.5Bn (T-50)
4x squadron AT-6B/equivalent for COIN, pipeline/border patrol: $1Bn

We're still in the $12-13.5Bn range, but the mix is more customized to Iraq's defense needs...now feel free to shoot holes in my plan :)

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » الخميس أغسطس 04, 2011 10:39 pm

By the way, you will notice that I slightly increased the number of high-end aircraft (F-16/Typhoon/SU-35/Rafale):
54+36+36=126 in your mix
36+60+36=132 in the mix I proposed

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة hayder » الجمعة أغسطس 05, 2011 10:49 am

ME-262 كتب:Hayder,

I'm curious as to why you assigned the strike role to a third type of aircraft (SU-35/Rafale). I totally understand the need for diversification of suppliers, but why the 3rd type of aircraft? I think the F-16 can do a decent job as a bomber (Israel and the US have used it effectively in the strike role, even at long ranges), and the Typhoons too can double as strike aircraft. The addition of the the SU-35/Rafale seems to be expensive ($1Bn more than F-16) and redundant (in role, not quantity).
The problem is the US is not supplying advanced air to ground ordnance with the F16s, nor do the F16s aircraft have the range and ECM capability of the Rafale/SU35s.
If we assume Iraq needs a minimum of 4 interceptor squadrons; one assigned to each AD sector, it would be more practical to buy:
2x squadrons of F-16 (36 aircraft: stop gap air superiority capability, re designate to strike force later): $2Bn
ok
4x squadrons (60 aircraft) of Typhoon as interceptors: $6Bn
also ok. The British will supply METEOR missiles too...
2x squadrons (36 aircraft: delayed) of additional F-16s, or F-15E as strike: $2-3Bn
If these are "delayed" purchases, why not make them F35s? By that time (2016 timeframe) Iraq's oil output would have tripled compared to today.
2x squadron T50 (or the cheaper Hawk) for the same role you mentioned: $1Bn (Hawk)-1.5Bn (T-50)
ok
4x squadron AT-6B/equivalent for COIN, pipeline/border patrol: $1Bn
also ok (see another thread where I propose using such COIN aircraft as the first line of defence along the long borders with Iran and Saudi arabia (the two gravest threats to Iraq).
We're still in the $12-13.5Bn range, but the mix is more customized to Iraq's defense needs...now feel free to shoot holes in my plan :)
Honestly all these are ok. But in my view Iraq SHOULD go for 3 separate sources of Supply.

US
European
Russian or Chinese

This way the Americans will sell us what we need. The Europeans will give us a good price (heavy competition) and the Russian/Chinese equipment ensures we have some form of self defence in case the Euro/US cuts us off...

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » السبت أغسطس 06, 2011 12:29 am

The problem is the US is not supplying advanced air to ground ordnance with the F16s, nor do the F16s aircraft have the range and ECM capability of the Rafale/SU35s.
Agree re: range and ECM, but advanced compatible ordnance could possibly be purchased from other NATO sources.
If these are "delayed" purchases, why not make them F35s? By that time (2016 timeframe) Iraq's oil output would have tripled compared to today.
Good point! Although there will most likely be a huge production backlog until the initial orders of the US and other program member states are fulfilled.
This way the Americans will sell us what we need. The Europeans will give us a good price (heavy competition) and the Russian/Chinese equipment ensures we have some form of self defence in case the Euro/US cuts us off...
Partially true, but remember, the last time Euro/US did cut us off, all that Chinese and Soviet stuff wasn't enough...As a policy, it'd be a lot wiser to stay on good terms with the US/EU, because when they cut you off, you know that s*&t has already hit the fan :)

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الجمعة سبتمبر 02, 2011 8:06 am

U.S., Iraq talking but no F-16 deal yet

* Iraq wants 36 sophisticated U.S. combat planes

* Deal delayed months ago when Iraq diverted funds to food

BAGHDAD Aug 31 (Reuters) - Washington and Baghdad have made significant progress on a deal for Iraq to buy Lockheed Martin F-16 warplanes but do not have a signed contract, a U.S. military official said on Wednesday.

The Iraqi government in February delayed its planned purchase of F-16s and diverted $900 million set aside for an initial payment on the aircraft into its national food ration programme to help ease shortages and cool nationwide protests.

But Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said on July 30 that Iraq would buy 36 F-16s, double the number it had originally planned, to shore up its weak air defences.

The OPEC producer has found itself flush with cash this year, reaping windfall profits as the world oil price has remained above budget projections.

In June Deputy Prime Minister Hussain al-Shahristani said Iraq's oil revenues were $8.7 billion, or 34 percent, over projections in the first five months of the year.

"Our two governments are working out the details. They do not have a signed contract yet, but significant progress (has been made) towards it," Major General Jeffrey Buchanan said.

Lockheed Martin, a leading Pentagon supplier and maker of the popular multi-role fighter used by about two dozen countries worldwide, has been involved in the talks, Buchanan said.

The two sides are negotiating on the F-16 Block 52 export model with sophisticated avionics and weapons, Buchanan said.

"If there is in fact a deal it would be the entire standard ... package which includes maintenance, training, training for the maintainers, training for the pilots," he said.

Lockheed Martin said in May it hoped to finalise F-16 sales to Iraq by early next year.

Iraq relies on the U.S. military for air support as it rebuilds its military more than eight years after the invasion that ousted Saddam Hussein. But U.S. forces are scheduled to leave Iraq by year-end under terms of a bilateral security pact.

The two sides are discussing whether to keep some U.S. troops or military trainers in the country next year.

Buchanan said he did not know the value of the possible F-16 contract or whether Iraq intended to buy the 36 combat jets at once or over time.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/ ... 9H20110831

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » الأربعاء سبتمبر 07, 2011 5:14 pm

Reading statements like this one below makes me believe that our defense "planners" know little about how this kind of contracts work.

Baghdad, Sept.7 (AKnews)- The U.S. should accelerate delivery of F16 fighter jets so that Iraq can fortify its air defense before the U.S. withdrawal by end of 2011, spokesman for Iraqi Defense Ministry said. Speaking to AKnews shortly after a meeting between the acting Defense Minister Saadun al-Dalimi and the U.S. Secretary of the Air Force Michael B. Donley, Maj.Gen. Mohammed al-Askari told AKnews on Tuesday that the meeting was to accelerate the enforcement of the contract to purchase F16 fighter jets.

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الخميس سبتمبر 08, 2011 9:38 am

It seems that the U.S. administration to intensify its efforts in Iraq to keep some U.S. air bases in Iraq after the date of a painful withdrawal from Iraq by end of this year, compared to speed up the completion of F-16 aircraft deal with Iraq. ?!



US air force secretary holds Iraq talks

US Secretary of the Air Force Michael Donley was in Iraq on Tuesday for a visit that an Iraqi defence ministry spokesman said included talks on F-16 fighter jets, which Iraq is seeking to buy.

Mohammed al-Askari told state television that Donley's "visit was intended to speed up the implementation of agreements and mechanisms for using F-16 combat planes, and observation aircraft and air defence systems."

The television reported that Donley held talks with acting defence minister Saadun al-Dulaimi.

Air force spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Pat Ryder confirmed to AFP by telephone that Donley "did visit Iraq today".

"I believe he has departed, but he was on a trip to meet with airmen and officials there in-country.

"This is part of a trip to meet with airmen and officials in various locations" that also include stops in Afghanistan, Australia, Singapore and the US Pacific island territory of Guam, Ryder said.

Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said on July 30 that he had revived talks to purchase 36 US F-16 fighter jets, rather than the originally mooted 18.

Maliki said he had signed documents relaunching talks to purchase F-16s from the United States, a deal that had been close to agreement earlier this year but was put off due to widespread protests railing against poor basic services.

The original deal had involved the acquisition of 18 F-16s, but Maliki said the new contract would lead to the purchase of 36.

"The new contract will be larger than what we agreed earlier, to provide security for Iraq," he said.

Any deal would be worth billions of dollars and take years to implement, as it would require the manufacture of the aircraft and the training of Iraqi pilots.

US commanders say that while Iraqi forces have the capacity to maintain internal security, they need further strengthening before they can defend Iraqi air space, territorial waters and borders.


http://news.yahoo.com/us-air-force-secr ... 34467.html




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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ايسوس العراق » الخميس سبتمبر 08, 2011 10:14 am

هل من اخبار حول متى ستتم الصفقة يعني وصول الطائرات للعراق ؟؟
لانه سابقا دار الحديث حول 4 او 3 سنوات لوصول اول مقاتلة ..؟؟؟!!
هذه مصيبة يعني 3 سنوات يبقى العراق تائها من دون قوة ردع ولو صغيرة .!
+

هل اتمم تدريب الطياريين على الاف 16
وكم عددهم
انتظركم شبابنا

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الجمعة سبتمبر 09, 2011 12:11 pm

حسب ما هو معلوم 10 من الطيارين العراقيين يتدربون في أمريكا على قيادة طائرات
F-16
وعلى أساس انهم الوجبة الاولى ستليها وجبات آخرى بعد اتمام العقد ومدة التدريب تتراوح بين 12 الى 17 شهر حسب مستوى خبرة المتدرب راجع الخبر المرفق وباللغة الانكليزية والذي نشر قبل اكثر من عام. كما ان العقد لم يوقع لحد الان وتتوقع شركة لوكهيد اتمام توقيع العقد في العام القادم 2012 وحسب الخبر الذي نشر في الاعلى . فأن التوقعات ان يتم التسليم في غضون عامين الى ثلاثة من توقيع العقد ويمكنك ان تقدر بعد ذلك كم يحتاج من وقت ليصبح اول سرب عراقي مقاتل عامل بكامل طاقته!
July 16, 2010 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The Iraqi government has signed an agreement with the U.S. government to train 10 Iraqi pilots. The agreement follows a request submitted by Iraq last March to purchase 18 F-16 Block 52s, for which congressional approval is pending.

The pilot training agreement provides for the training of an initial cadre of ten selectively-chosen Iraqi Air Force pilots who are projected to begin training this fall in the United States. Upon graduation, these pilots will have completed all flight training necessary to move immediately into F-16 flying training.

The program will include all necessary components of T-6A Texan II and T-38 Talon training including a course called Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. The intensive flight training will be complemented with specialized English language training for aviation. The training for each student will last from 12 to 17 months depending on the experience level of the pilot.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4140.html

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ايسوس العراق » الجمعة سبتمبر 09, 2011 10:11 pm

TangoIII كتب:حسب ما هو معلوم 10 من الطيارين العراقيين يتدربون في أمريكا على قيادة طائرات
F-16
وعلى أساس انهم الوجبة الاولى ستليها وجبات آخرى بعد اتمام العقد ومدة التدريب تتراوح بين 12 الى 17 شهر حسب مستوى خبرة المتدرب راجع الخبر المرفق وباللغة الانكليزية والذي نشر قبل اكثر من عام. كما ان العقد لم يوقع لحد الان وتتوقع شركة لوكهيد اتمام توقيع العقد في العام القادم 2012 وحسب الخبر الذي نشر في الاعلى . فأن التوقعات ان يتم التسليم في غضون عامين الى ثلاثة من توقيع العقد ويمكنك ان تقدر بعد ذلك كم يحتاج من وقت ليصبح اول سرب عراقي مقاتل عامل بكامل طاقته!
July 16, 2010 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The Iraqi government has signed an agreement with the U.S. government to train 10 Iraqi pilots. The agreement follows a request submitted by Iraq last March to purchase 18 F-16 Block 52s, for which congressional approval is pending.

The pilot training agreement provides for the training of an initial cadre of ten selectively-chosen Iraqi Air Force pilots who are projected to begin training this fall in the United States. Upon graduation, these pilots will have completed all flight training necessary to move immediately into F-16 flying training.

The program will include all necessary components of T-6A Texan II and T-38 Talon training including a course called Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. The intensive flight training will be complemented with specialized English language training for aviation. The training for each student will last from 12 to 17 months depending on the experience level of the pilot.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4140.html
بأختصار العراق سيصبح"مكفخة" خلال 3 سنوات قادمة لحين اتمام صفقات فعلية

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الأربعاء سبتمبر 14, 2011 7:56 pm

القصة التي لم تحل نهايتها بعد

وزارة الدفاع الامريكية تعلن قرب الاتفاق مع العراق لبيعه 18 مقاتلة أف-16


U.S. To Sell 18 F-16s to Iraq: Pentagon


WASHINGTON - The United States is "very close" to selling some 18 F-16 fighter jets to Iraq, a top Pentagon official announced September 14.

Iraq had frozen the $4.2 billion deal earlier this year amid the Arab Spring pro-democracy uprisings, but the prospects were "promising" for the contract to now move ahead, Gen. Russ Handy, head of the U.S. Air Force in Iraq, said.

"They are seeking to buy a larger number of F-16s (than) they had originally, up to 36. This first letter of offer and acceptance is for 18 of them, so we hope to hear very soon, but no final word yet on that," Handy told reporters.

"Everyone I talk to, everyone within the government in Iraq is convinced it's the right choice for them, so we are very encouraged by those words and we feel that we are very close to them signing that letter of offer and acceptance."

The news comes after U.S. Secretary of the Air Force Michael Donley visited Iraq earlier this month for talks on the F-16 sale after Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said on July 30 that he had revived the talks.

But Maliki said then that Iraq was looking at the purchase of some 36 jets, rather than the originally mooted 18. "The new contract will be larger than what we agreed earlier, to provide security for Iraq," he said.

Any deal would be worth billions of dollars and take years to implement, as it would require the manufacture of the aircraft and the training of Iraqi pilots.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AME&s=AIR

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة TangoIII » الثلاثاء سبتمبر 27, 2011 8:41 am

نقلا عن أحد مستشاري رئيس الوزراء نوري المالكي العراق وقع عقدا لشراء 18
طائرة مقاتلة من نوع
F-16
نقلت ذلك وكالة رويتر للانباء عن المستشار اللاعلامي للمالكي علي الموسوي الذي لم يفصح عن قيمة الصفقة لكن مسؤولا" أمريكيا قدر قيمة الصفقة بما يقرب من 3 مليارات دولار.
Iraq signs deal to buy 18 F-16 warplanes

(Reuters) - Iraq has signed a contract to buy 18 Lockheed Martin F-16 warplanes to bolster its air force, an adviser to Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said on Monday.

The value of the deal was not immediately known, but a senior U.S. military official said recently the offer on the table for the Iraqi government was valued at "roughly $3 billion."

Iraqi and U.S. military officials have said strengthening its air force is one of Baghdad's top priorities as U.S. troops prepare to leave by December 31, more than eight years after the invasion that ousted Saddam Hussein.

"The contract was signed ... and a part of the contract cost was sent to the bank account of the company," said Maliki's media adviser, Ali al-Moussawi.

Lockheed said in a statement it looked forward to a partnership with Baghdad and was "pleased with the confidence Iraq places in our products." It declined to comment on the specifics of the deal, referring questions to the Iraqi and U.S. governments.

The Pentagon said it was aware of news reports that Iraq had signed the agreement but did not immediately confirm and referred questions to Baghdad.

Iraq has long sought a combat jet for its rebuilt air force. The government delayed a planned purchase of F-16s in February to divert a $900 million down payment to its national food ration program to help quell street protests.

Maliki said on July 30 Iraq would buy 36 F-16s, double the number it had originally planned, to shore up its weak air defenses. The OPEC producer has found itself flush with cash this year, reaping windfall profits as world oil prices have remained above budget projections.

The two sides have been negotiating for the F-16 Block 52 export model with sophisticated avionics and weapons in a deal that included maintenance and training, a U.S. military official said.

Iraq is relying on the U.S. military for air support as it rebuilds its forces and battles a stubborn Islamist insurgency. Washington and Baghdad are discussing whether to keep some U.S. troops or military trainers in Iraq beyond the year-end deadline for U.S. departure.

Iraq's two airborne defense units, the Air Force and Army Aviation Command, have only 158 aircraft, including 89 helicopters and 69 airplanes, and about 7,500 personnel, according to U.S. figures.

At present, it has three Cessna Caravan propeller planes equipped with Hellfire missiles but no combat jets, a U.S. military official said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/ ... KN20110926


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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » الثلاثاء سبتمبر 27, 2011 6:08 pm

Anyone has a link/text of the actual contract announcement? How can one get more detail about the actual price and included items?

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Re: مجلس الوزراء يصادق على التعاقد على شراء 18 مقاتلة أف-16

مشاركة بواسطة ME-262 » الثلاثاء سبتمبر 27, 2011 7:00 pm

Now this from Dow Jones:
WASHINGTON—Iraq has finalized a deal to buy advanced U.S. fighter jets, the first step toward building a modern postwar air force, officials said. Iraq has yet to publicly announce completion of the deal to buy 18 F-16s, but officials in Washington said an initial payment of $1.5 billion has been received.

Isn't this a little too much for 18 units? Could it be an initial payment for 36?

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